Bruderhof: a Christian Community in the Platte Clove

Transcribed by Jerome Kazlauskas

Daryl Mercer  0:03  
I would say, "It's less of a proselytizing sort of mission, and more of a ... some ... someone needs help, we help them out." This isn't about going to church on Sunday. This is about showing what we believe in daily life.

Brett Barry  0:20  
Let's be honest, you and I both know someone for whom church is just a moral obligation, but that moral compass can drift pretty egregiously between Sundays. Church for the Bruderhof is just one ingredient in a lifelong commitment to what I personally think is a best of Christianity: peace, love, honesty, looking out for your neighbor, that kind of thing. Are they perfect? They'll be the first to tell you they're not, but in my own encounters with the Bruderhof, there's nothing performative about the life they lead—about 3,000 people live the Bruderhof life worldwide, and here in the Catskills, there's a community of 240 of them in Greene County's Platte Clove. On today's "Kaatscast," join us for a visit to that community and hear firsthand what defines this communal lifestyle with its roots in World War I Germany, and we'll tackle some honest questions with equally honest answers about topics like marriage, shared possessions, conservative dress, and lots more. In just a moment, come along for a special trip to the Platte Clove Bruderhof community.

Campbell Brown  1:35  
This episode is supported by Hanford Mills Museum. Explore the power of the past as knowledgeable staff guide you through the mill with demonstrations of the waterwheel, sawmill, and woodworking machines. For more information about scheduling a tour or about their 2024 exploration days, visit hanfordmills.org; and by Briars & Brambles Books. The go to independent book and gift store in the Catskills, located in Windham, New York, right next to the pharmacy, just steps away from the Windham Path. Open daily. For more information, visit briarsandbramblesbooks.com or call 518-750-8599.

Milton O'Connell  2:14  
I'm Milton O'Connell and we're here at the Platte Clove community in Elka Park on a beautiful May 2nd day.

Daryl Mercer  2:27  
I'm Daryl Mercer, and I'm happy to be a part of this interview as well, and I live here with my family of three kids, and it's a beautiful early May Day in the Catskills.

Milton O'Connell  2:41  
It's beautiful. This was the New York City Police Camp until the Bruderhof community's bought in 1990. In the earlier years at the police camp, you know, everyone I've ever met who was involved only has awesome memories of hiking, swimming ... there's a beautiful lake across the valley that was built in the sixties. There was a big pool here, right below where we're sitting. There's a big dance hall, which we'll show you in a few minutes over by the school. You know, they just had a great time, and then when we bought it in 1990, there had been a few years and it was empty. They weren't using it so much, and there was many seasonal bungalows around that were torn down, and then we built more year-round housing, and also the small factory. Yeah, most people here love it.

Brett Barry  3:33  
Tell me what ... what you guys do in this community, and how'd you get stuck with me?

Everyone  3:38  
[LAUGHTER]

Milton O'Connell  3:41  
Well, I can start. I work part-time in the medical clinic here. It's kind of a family practice office, and we provide just basic medical services for the members, the community, the kids, the elderly, and it's a great place to work, and I enjoy it, and otherwise I spend time raising my five kids and doing stuff with them on the weekends and evenings, and how do we get stuck with you? I guess, Brett contacted through our website, and then we have kind of an outreach director who suggested that we get together and chat a little on a nice spring day, so I guess that's how it worked out.

Brett Barry  4:26  
And, Daryl, tell me what you do here.

Daryl Mercer  4:29  
My role is to make sure all the bills are paid. I kind of work in the financial office, and also help with the outreach to our neighborhood. I spent a lot of time in the factory as well.

Brett Barry  4:42  
And the factory here does what?

Daryl Mercer  4:43  
It's a factory for Rifton Equipment, and we make equipment for people with disabilities. Our two main products here is a specialized seating chair with many different prompts and adjustments, and a stander for kids who can't stand on their own to get them in a vertical position, so they can do activities and participate in daily life.

Brett Barry  5:11  
And everything you do all of the work [the output from these communities worldwide] comes back to the community, so there's no personal ownership here, is that right?

Daryl Mercer  5:21  
So, members of this community, we agreed to pool all our earnings, and then in return, we ... we have this beautiful place and we ... we eat together. You know, we have our own medical practice, our own daycare, elementary school, so no each individual is not technically making any money working in the factory, but collectively, we're obviously earning our keep, and we also then, work together between communities, so each ... each community is not financially separate.

Brett Barry  5:59  
So that diversifies in case from a financial standpoint no one community is gonna go down.

Daryl Mercer  6:05  
That's correct.

Brett Barry  6:06  
Yeah, what determines what everybody does? Is it personal choice? Is that what you're good at? Is it assigned? Are there job postings within the community ... interested to know how that works?

Daryl Mercer  6:16  
In order to make this work, we all agree to do what's needed, but it is definitely somewhat geared to what people are interested in doing and what they're good at ... that makes sense?

Brett Barry  6:31  
Let's say, "I lived on this community, and I want to ... I want to produce podcasts." You must have a communications division, who would I speak to? Is there someone who kind of assigns roles or ... or an employer of sorts that determines who does what?

Daryl Mercer  6:46  
Yeah, we call them work distributors?

Brett Barry  6:48  
Mm-hmm.

Daryl Mercer  6:48  
Yeah, I'm sure ... I'm sure there'll be some sort of communications role where you could jump into. You have, you know, we have our own IT department, and we have ...

Milton O'Connell  6:56  
The publishing house.

Daryl Mercer  6:56  
... the publishing house, which ... which you've been involved with as well. I've always been interested in doing things with my hands and, you know, mechanical things, so I ... I worked in the welding shop for years, and, you know, I enjoyed it thoroughly, but it was also a job that needed to get done, you know, welding up frames for the products.

Brett Barry  7:16  
I mean, as a self-sustaining community, I'm sure that you can pretty much do most of the things that you would do not in the community, there's a need for lots of different skills.

Daryl Mercer  7:27  
Yeah, for sure, but it also ... nobody's interested in making somebody do something that they have no interest in doing. There definitely has to be a little bit of that, but nobody wants to do a job that they don't want to do year after year.

Brett Barry  7:40  
So communal, but not communism.

Daryl Mercer  7:42  
Right.

Milton O'Connell  7:43  
Definitely, relating to the question of the structure and the financial structure, like Daryl said, "It's important to realize the ... the original vision, the intent of setting up the, you know, Christian community is based in ... in the Bible [in the book of Acts] were the early Christians after Jesus Christ returned to heaven, live together and shared everything, and tried to have a society where they help the poor, they help the sick, the earnings weren't their own, and that was the intent of the founder of these communities back in 1920, and, you know, putting that into practice in the modern age is not easy ... that is the vision for it, and it takes a lot of work, a lot of communication, and a lot of going back to ... say, "Well, what actually was that original idea? You know."

Brett Barry  8:38  
So, Bruderhof isn't a religion, but it's a way to interpret religion in a sense. Would you say that, or, I mean, it's based in Christianity, of course, but is there a particular branch of Christianity that you adhere to?

Milton O'Connell  8:53  
Yeah, I mean, in general, I'd say, "It's the Anabaptist, which is belief in adult baptism," and then I would say, "As far as Christian practices, it's ... it's trying to live out the beliefs and trying to live each day and all the adieu to follow Jesus' commands." It's great to go to church on Sunday and do those things. You know, that's awesome. 100 percent, but we're trying to take it to a level where it also includes real care for our neighbors, and we may not do it perfectly every day, but that's the vision, you know.

Brett Barry  9:30  
Mindful living.

Milton O'Connell  9:31  
Yeah.

Audio  9:34  
[MUSIC STARTS]

Brett Barry  9:35  
Tell me about the founder, and how this came to be in 1920, where and why. What was missing at that time that ... that this built?

Milton O'Connell  9:45  
Sure. Eberhard Arnold was the founder, and he was a highly educated doctor of theology in the Lutheran Church, and he became, I guess, disillusioned with the structure of the church, and so forth, following World War I, which was obviously a horrible time in history, and through that he had, you know, a real conversion, and decided that the best way to live out the practices of the Bible [of the early Christians] was in a church community, and he started very small in a house in the country. He'd grown up in the city of Berlin, so it was a real change, and he moved there with his wife, and they started this small community, and from there it grew, and then, of course, World War II came along, and they were pacifists, and were eventually forced out of Germany. It's a longer history, but eventually to England, and then the communities moved to Paraguay. Eberhard [himself] passed away, just before World War II started, but, you know, the Bruderhof communities continued.

Brett Barry  11:00  
And today, how many people are affiliated with the Bruderhof communities worldwide, and also in this community itself?

Milton O'Connell  11:07  
In this community itself, there's about 240 people: a lot of children, you know, adults, families, and worldwide, it's around 3,000 members on all different continents.

Brett Barry  11:20  
Is there a mission that ... that permeates all of those communities?

Milton O'Connell  11:25  
I mean I think the primary ... the goal is, first of all, to follow Jesus each day, and to ... but to look after each other to live together in community peacefully with each other, which obviously takes some work, but then, certainly, the ... the wider goal is also the same goals as any Christian, which is missionizing the people that don't know about Jesus, which is helping those around us in our neighborhoods, you know, hopefully as much or more than the people that we even live with, you know, all those things are things that we try to do.

Daryl Mercer  12:00  
Yeah, we often help out our locality with different needs that come up. I would say, "It's ... it's less of a proselytizing sort of mission, and more of a ... some ... someone needs help, we help them out," and it kind of comes back to ... Milton was saying earlier that ... this isn't about going to church on Sunday ... this is about showing what we believe in daily life, and we probably don't do a very good job of it, but that's ... that's our goal.

Brett Barry  12:30  
If you're not doing a good job of it, who is?

Milton O'Connell  12:32  
[LAUGHTER]

Daryl Mercer  12:34  
Yeah, I'm not sure I can answer that.

Everyone  12:36  
[LAUGHTER]

Daryl Mercer  12:37  
If we think we're doing a good job and we're probably not ...

Brett Barry  12:41  
How do you become a member of this community? Are you born into it? Can you come to it, and can you leave it?

Milton O'Connell  12:47  
Membership is purely voluntary ... adult decision ... many of the members were ... are born into the community, but certainly not exclusively, and every year, there's, you know, members that join from off of the community, and it's a ... it's a free willing choice that's, you know, never pressed on anyone, it's their decision, and it's a lifetime commitment, and there's vows that members take, you know, to the wider church movement, but also committing themselves personally to the life here. If somebody takes those vows, and then later in their life, things come up, and they decide to leave the community or ... or break the vows that, you know, that's their choice, and it certainly does happen. It's obviously sad for those of us who are here, but you also can't be here, if you really don't want to be, and people who make that decision, we try to help them and ... and wish them well in what they're doing because, you know, as Daryl was saying, relating to the daily work what you're doing, "If you don't want to do it, it really doesn't work."

Brett Barry  14:01  
And the kids who grew up here are encouraged to make that decision? Do most of them go to college to discover what they want to do and then either return or not? How does that work?

Milton O'Connell  14:15  
They all go to high school, and each community has a bit of a different setup with the high schools also depending on what country they are in, etc., and many of them go to college. I don't know the exact statistics ... certainly not all, and then somewhere along the line or after college or if they're ready to make those vows and they would stay on the community and would make them ...

Audio  14:41  
[MUSIC STARTS]

Brett Barry  14:42  
Justine Maendel is a good case study. She grew up in the Bruderhof community, left and returned on her own volition. I spoke with her about that later in the day.

Justine Maendel  14:53  
Hi, my name is Justine Maendel. I live at the Platte Clove Bruderhof community, and most recently, I lived here with my family for about six years, but I grew up here as well as a child.

Brett Barry  15:05  
You had the choice to come back to this community and you did?

Justine Maendel  15:09  
Yes.

Brett Barry  15:11  
What do you like most about this lifestyle?

Justine Maendel  15:16  
So I left the community when I was 19 years old. I went to the Middle East. I was very passionate about social justice and work for the poor, and I felt like the community was very idealistic, and had all these great, you know, ideals and so on, but we weren't actually doing anything for people, and I wanted to get out there and get my hands dirty and work with the poor, and I, you know, had to save the world complex to ... I don't know how else to put it, and I realized very fast that ... that I can't do anything on my own, and that if the team of people that I'm working with is not united doesn't have a common vision, things just don't work out, and I experienced a lot of gossip and backbiting and undermining and undercutting, which I think is very normal in any workplace, and it was very disturbing to me because I hadn't experienced that before, and I realized that the community is not perfect, and not everyone here will tell you that no one, you know, there's a lot of things wrong because we're very human. We were just normal people, and we mess up every day, but there is the chance to repent and ask for forgiveness and work together and work things out because we're all here for the same reason, and that's something that I didn't find anywhere else.

Brett Barry  16:49  
What's it like to grow up in a place like this and then to come back?

Justine Maendel  16:54  
It's a rewarding experience to raise my children in the same place that I was raised ... do the same activities, take them on the same hikes. It's ... it's a beautiful place there. From our property, you can go 360 degrees [you can point and off you go], and there's ... there's something to explore and discover a place to enjoy, so ...

Brett Barry  17:17  
What do you do here to contribute to the community in terms of work?

Justine Maendel  17:21  
So I've done a lot of different work over the years. I studied history and business and ended up doing a one semester course at NYU for paralegal studies, so I've done everything from sales to purchasing to working with our businesses on corporate affairs. Now, I am taking a break from that kind of work. Thankfully, I have four kids, and I work in our Daycare Center. I work in our factory, so I've really done a lot of different things up here.

Brett Barry  18:04  
More from Justine in a moment. But first, lunch, and a tour of that factory. Not every meal is a communal affair, but lunchtime is an opportunity for families to eat together in a large dining room on the property. Everyone gets the same lunch break, so whether you're in the factory, tending a garden or sitting in an elementary classroom, this meal draws everyone back for a midday check-in. On this particular afternoon, I joined Milton and his family at one of many long tables for the meal of the day: stir-fry. But first, a song, which only I, and maybe some of the younger kids didn't know how to sing.

Everyone  18:53  
[SINGING]

Brett Barry  19:29  
Milton's family chatted with me over stir-fry about their morning activities and life at Platte Clove. The youngest dressed in stage makeup had been portraying a zoo animal in his kindergarten class. After lunch, Milton and Daryl walked me over to that state-of-the-art factory, which was quiet at the moment on the tail end of lunch hour.

Daryl Mercer  19:52  
So this is ... this is kind of the main assembly floor.

Brett Barry  19:55  
Yeah.

Daryl Mercer  19:55  
A normal day—there's ... there's 30 to 40 people working on the assembly floor. You heard it at lunchtime. We're doing night shift, so the whole ... the whole community will come down ... all the adults work for an hour. That's ... that's often the highlight for every kid—everyone's working together in the same, you know, same neck of the woods. You can see these ... this is part of a chair. We call it, "The RAC Chair" [Rifton Activity Chair]. This is the large size, and there's two other sizes: medium and small.

Brett Barry  20:30  
Just then, product engineer [Andres Hinkey] joined us to show off one of the latest products.

Milton O'Connell  20:39  
He's on the design team.

Brett Barry  20:41  
That's maybe a ...

Milton O'Connell  20:41  
... product development for Rifton.

Andres Hinkey  20:43  
This is our newest product. It's a standing device to help people that can't free stand and can gain strength in their legs, so this one is for kids up to like four and a half feet tall, and then we're working on making full-sized adult versions as well.

Brett Barry  21:01  
How much product development is there? Are you constantly innovating and trying to create new ... expand the line?

Andres Hinkey  21:08  
Yeah, we have currently two full-time teams developing new products: one at the Rifton location near Kingston and then one here, so I've been working since graduating college, and it's three of us full-time trying to put this thing out. The engineering side is very fun and applies the things that I learned in school, and then the industry is about as worthy as it gets, making products for people with disabilities, so this product adapts to the user size. You can adjust the legs longer, and these body support systems out, too. There's a tray here that swings around, and then this entire system can tilt from a lying position. You would put the user in, lying on their back, get them situated, there's supports for their head, keep it centered if it's needed, some lateral supports at the hip or trunk, and then when they're fully secured and safely positioned, you can incline this system up to whatever angle they can tolerate to get partial load bearing on their feet and legs, and then this product has height adjustment with this crank here to get the kids with their feet on the floor for peer-to-peer interaction. There's a lot of activities that are much better in a standing position, so kids that would normally be stuck in a wheelchair all hours of the day can get up in the vertical position, and interact with the world much better.

Brett Barry  22:41  
And you were involved in the design of this?

Andres Hinkey  22:44  
Yeah, I came onto the team ... after quite a bit of research, we had a general idea of what we were trying to create and the problem we were trying to solve, but then we built many iterations of prototypes and took them into the field called some schools that ... "Hey, do you have kids that we can try this out with?" We noticed the legs don't go long enough for the users we're targeting. Let's adjust this a little bit. The straps are too short. This is uncomfortable. Let's change the contour in this segment, and then when we've ... there's a fairly formal process establishing the changes and answering the design questions that we had at the beginning of the project, and then we start sourcing parts and get them all: get the supply chain spooled up, build instructions and get everybody trained on how to put it together. There's hundreds of parts in this assembly, so this was a good four or five years in the works.

Brett Barry  23:42  
So now it's in full production. How many are you manufacturing?

Andres Hinkey  23:46  
Right now, it's looking at 20 something a week, I think ... yeah, exceeding our expectations on sales volumes, so we're pretty happy with that, and, of course, we've got people who have seen the size to banging on the door when can we get the next sizes. It's pretty fun putting users in, improving their quality of life pretty significantly.

Brett Barry  24:10  
And the operating expenses for this community as he's told me before are split among all the communities, so you're not just reliant on this business. Another community isn't just reliance on what they're doing. It all is pulled together, but this seems like a major component. Rifton ... Rifton Equipment seems like a big one, and what do you remind me what you do here?

Daryl Mercer  24:32  
I usually help with the welding. Sometimes they'll do assembly work. All the ... all these welded frames you see even welded here and powder coated, so this is kind of the welding department. You know, everything is ... everything is jigged up and pretty easy to make repeatable runs.

Brett Barry  24:49  
This is a pretty specialized product. Do you have competitors out in the world that are doing similar stuff?

Daryl Mercer  24:55  
Yeah, there's ... there's a bunch of competitors.

Brett Barry  24:58  
You're the best?

Daryl Mercer  24:59  
Of course.

Everyone  25:01  
[LAUGHTER]

Daryl Mercer  25:03  
What you see here is fabric sewing: sewing of the different pads that are on there and the straps.

Brett Barry  25:10  
Sewing and riveting?

Everyone  25:11  
Yeah, yep.

Daryl Mercer  25:13  
This area you can see especially like sit-down jobs is often like the elderly were working here. They love to contribute as well. You know, often 80-year-olds, sometimes even like early 90-year-olds, they're in here as much as they can, you know, often ... it's only a couple hours a day, but they love to contribute as well, so it's always cool to see.

Brett Barry  25:33  
What are these devices I'm looking at?

Daryl Mercer  25:36  
It's a screwdriver. Yeah, just ... just puts in a screw. It's a way of doing it without having to ...

Brett Barry  25:43  
Got it.

Daryl Mercer  25:43  
You know, if you expected somebody to hold that thing just right and screw it in there.

Audio  25:47  
[SCREWDRIVER SOUND]

Daryl Mercer  25:49  
So ...

Brett Barry  25:50  
That's ... staying in the podcast, what is this crazy device? It's a screwdriver.

Everyone  25:58  
[LAUGHTER]

Brett Barry  25:59  
How far and wide does this product go ... do you know ... any sense?

Daryl Mercer  26:03  
It's the majority is ... is the United States, but we ship worldwide. It's about 40 percent international.

Milton O'Connell  26:11  
The items I make often have the location ... if they're going internationally, they have the location, and it's everywhere.

Daryl Mercer  26:16  
In Israel, Japan ...

Milton O'Connell  26:17  
Israel, Japan ...

Daryl Mercer  26:19  
Germany, United Kingdom ...

Brett Barry  26:21  
And this same thing is happening in Rifton [obviously it's called Rifton Equipment], so that community is doing the same work. How do you work with them ... is it?

Daryl Mercer  26:30  
Very closely.

Brett Barry  26:31  
Who's collaboration and what you're producing what they're wasting ...

Daryl Mercer  26:33  
And we ...

Brett Barry  26:34  
... filling orders?

Daryl Mercer  26:35  
You know, like in the metal ... metal fabrication, there's some things that we make, which we shipped down to them to get used and vice versa. Same with the factory out in Pennsylvania. Yeah, we're sending them products to assemble. They send us plastic molded parts. You know, everyone's working together.

Audio  26:53  
[WORKING SOUND]

Brett Barry  26:57  
And I think I read that ... you guys aren't tax exempt, right, so you're paying ... are you paying property taxes or do you know this?

Daryl Mercer  27:03  
Yeah, we say property tax. We, churches, are exempt, so we have our property actually split up somewhat, and so parts that are clearly church ... that's tax exempt, but yeah, everything else is taxable, and ...

Brett Barry  27:20  
So in terms of having a factory here in Greene County, it's a ... it's a benefit for the county, too.

Daryl Mercer  27:25  
Yeah, that is a bit of a misconception ... a lot of people think that we don't, you know, it's a huge area and we don't pay any tax, but we're actually one of the bigger tax providers for the county, and we're, you know, we're happy to contribute because the county is good to us. We should turn that around as well.

Audio  27:41  
[MUSIC STARTS]

Brett Barry  27:42  
We'll dispel more myths about the Bruderhof, and stick around for some of my stickier questions. I don't know how to phrase this ... with Milton, Daryl & Justine, right after this.

Campbell Brown  27:58  
"Kaatscast" is supported by the Mountain Eagle, covering Delaware, Greene, and Schoharie counties, including brands for the local region such as the Windham Weekly, Schoharie News, Cobleskill Herald, and Catskills Chronicle. For more information, call 518-763-6854 or email: mountaineaglenews@gmail.com.

Brett Barry  28:18  
Hey, we've got some exciting news. "Kaatscast" was just awarded its third consecutive "Chronogrammy" for a best regional podcast, and we couldn't have done it without you. Thanks for voting, and if this is a show you think your friends would enjoy, spread the word. You can also sign up for our newsletter with behind-the-scenes reporting and bonus material at kaatscast.com. While you're there, you can rate the show, leave a review, and peruse our growing list of Catskills stories.

Audio  28:48  
[MUSIC]

Brett Barry  28:51  
Back at the Platte Clove community, we dug a little deeper into some of the perceptions and misconceptions from the outside world and vice versa. When the outside community sees members from the Bruderhof out in the world, I wouldn't know that you're Bruderhof ... you dress like I do, but the women dress differently. Can you talk a little bit about that ... that separation?

Milton O'Connell  29:19  
Sure. Like I said, "The communities first started in Germany in 1920," and in those ... in that setting, it was a modest simple peasant kind of a dress, and that did hold through has held through, so the main reason is modesty, sexual purity, and the dress has changed over the years for the women. For a number of years, we were more closely linked with the Hutterites, which is out in the Midwest, and they have a very distinct dress. More recently, the dress has changed somewhat, but still, the general feeling is simplicity, modesty.

Audio  30:03  
[BIRDS CHIRPING]

Brett Barry  30:06  
If a woman wanted to wear jeans, would that be frowned upon?

Milton O'Connell  30:11  
I'm sure some do ... I know some do, you know, when they're hiking or gardening or, but in general again, it's something that, you know, if a woman chose to live here, they, you know, they decided to kind of take that upon themselves, and they ... they want to do it.

Brett Barry  30:28  
Back to Justine for a woman's perspective.

Justine Maendel  30:30  
I guess I've dressed this way most of my life, so I'm used to it, and in a way, I think it makes you a stronger person because you're always representing something. You know, people see you, and they make assumptions, and maybe those assumptions are wrong, but ... but you don't just walk by, and they don't notice you, unless you're in New York City, and that nobody cares.

Brett Barry  30:57  
You know, you could do anything in New York City.

Justine Maendel  30:59  
Yeah, really, yeah, no one batted an eye, so that was interesting for me to, you know, to go to school there for two and a half years, and occasionally, you know, tourists would stare, but the regular New Yorkers, they just kept moving.

Brett Barry  31:12  
I know. I had asked Milton and Daryl about comparisons to Amish dress, and to the Amish in general. A lot of people know about the Amish, and especially the women's dress here is reminiscent of that ... what separates you from a community like the Amish or the Mennonites?

Milton O'Connell  31:33  
It's similar in, like I mentioned, the general branch of Christianity, if you will, is ... is Anabaptist. Those groups also certainly believe in ... in adult baptism, and also, you know, as a simpler lifestyle, but they are more ... they're not a church community. Remember, how dare I was saying, "We pool our income." That's certainly a big thing that would separate us from them, as far as I know.

Daryl Mercer  32:01  
There's also many different styles of Amish living ... tomorrow, more communal, and some are less communal, and we have many good friends in the Amish communities, you know, good people in many many ways, and really believing strongly in what they're doing.

Brett Barry  32:16  
Technology, though, is not something you shy away from. In fact, it seems like you embrace it. I think when I went to the website, there was actually a drone shot of this property, so there's some fun technology happening, and that's not a problem.

Milton O'Connell  32:30  
Yeah, we ... we use technology and we try to limit it to primarily for our businesses and work. Although, of course, some people, you know, some of us use it for entertainment now and then, but, in general, we try not to become too obsessed with it, and but we still use it where it makes sense. I think we generally limit like social media and stuff, but we certainly have websites and ... and use computers in our workplaces and phones to communicate, and yeah.

Brett Barry  33:00  
Let's talk about marriage. How do you find a mate? She would have to come from the community, right, or not necessarily.

Daryl Mercer  33:10  
A marriage here in the church is ... is between two members.

Brett Barry  33:18  
Mm-hmm.

Daryl Mercer  33:19  
If you want to get ... if you want to get married to somebody else, I guess that's your choice. You just have to go do it on your own. It wouldn't be ... it wouldn't be a marriage performed here in the church. You know, we have pastors who ... who also help kind of guide the younger ... the younger people to ... to finding a marriage partner, and it's ... the goal is to find the other person's heart before the physical uniting, so—and that's ultimately what's going to hold the marriage together, and if you ... if you know each other well enough from a spiritual level, I guess you could see.

Brett Barry  34:03  
With a pastor involvement, how much choice does the individual have?

Daryl Mercer  34:08  
100 percent, yeah, and there's no ... there's no pre-arranged marriages.

Brett Barry  34:13  
So not to get all mushy, but was there a romantic connection when you met your wife? Is that what led or was there some kind of more formal process? How does it work?

Milton O'Connell  34:24  
No, there was definitely a romantic connection, but I didn't just immediately go to her.

Brett Barry  34:28  
Mm-hmm.

Milton O'Connell  34:29  
I actually went to the pastor first and talk to him about it, and, you know, [and] it took some time, but then, yeah, in this case, took a few years ... I was going to school like, you know, we communicated, and then, eventually we were married in 2004.

Brett Barry  34:47  
And now have ...

Milton O'Connell  34:48  
Five kids.

Brett Barry  34:49  
Five kids.

Milton O'Connell  34:50  
Yeah.

Daryl Mercer  34:51  
But there's ... there's never like dating per se and like experimental this and that. It's, you know, certainly encouraged ... the younger people to have self-discipline, and, you know, if it's the right thing, it has to be a lifelong thing.

Brett Barry  35:08  
I don't know how to phrase this ... the health of the marriages in this community ... is there ever a time when it doesn't work out?

Daryl Mercer  35:15  
It happens.

Brett Barry  35:16  
Mm-hmm.

Daryl Mercer  35:17  
As members of the church, we're committed to working things out, so if it's broke, you fix it, and that takes a heck of a lot of work day-to-day. You know, you can't just have a problem with somebody, and just kind of keep sweeping it under the rug or ... or just ignoring them because you ... because we live together. You have to sort things out, and that in the end builds, you know, more unity, you could call it, and it's the same for marriages. We're all committed to, you know, if ... if we have problems that we're going to sort it out, and often that will involve, you know, bringing in some advisors or ... or a pastor to help.

Brett Barry  35:57  
What misconceptions would you want to dispel? What things have you heard from people who don't know so much about you that you would say, "No, that's not ... that's not right?"

Milton O'Connell  36:06  
I'm sure there's people that look at us, and say, "This is a very closed off group." People aren't allowed to do what they want. You don't have the freedoms that people have in normal society, and the truth is, "Yeah, there's something to that." I can't just drive to Niagara Falls tomorrow because it's a nice day, and I want to show my kids the Falls, but you have to look at the trade-off. On the other hand, what I do have is a beautiful place. People around here who will help me if I [should] go off the rails, good schools for the kids ... I think that if someone doesn't have any understanding of a Christian lifestyle, they would really say, "You know, it's crazy: the women dressed that way, the men dressed that way, you know, what's ... what's going on here?" But if somebody wants to have ... to have more of an understanding of those things, they may understand it more. Of course, they may not, but, you know, everyone isn't gonna always accept or appreciate the way that everyone else is ... is living, and so that's also just part of it.

Justine Maendel  37:15  
I think one big misconception is that we are somehow ignorant. I've encountered it a lot because of the way we dress, we're sort of seen as a bit backwards, and a lot of people here are very well-educated, well-read up on current events, involved in local politics or, you know, have friends outside of the community and know what's going on in the world and care about what's going on in the world. It's not just about us, you know, living in a beautiful place and raising our kids and burying our heads in the sand.

Brett Barry  37:56  
Tell me a little bit about your interactions with the world outside of the community. You're all free to come and go and volunteer or even just do shopping or going to school outside of the community. What are your biggest disappointments or frustrations with the world outside of this community? It's idyllic here. We're surrounded by mountains. There's not another property in sight that you provide for each other. What are some things that just make you shutter about how people live outside of this community? Things that are just ... in your eyes going in the wrong direction.

Milton O'Connell  38:37  
I'd hesitate to answer that because I wouldn't ... I wouldn't want to sound judgmental of anyone, and but for sure, the ... obviously, the breakdown of society, you know, many kids have only one parent, you know, high rates of divorce and problems that on family levels are very, you know, hard to see, and I, you know, even things like the opioid epidemic, young lives are wasted, you know, pursuing nothing. All those things are things that there's a ... there's a way to prevent that, you know, and it is by working together by having a belief [and a power higher than yourself] by living for something else and pleasure-seeking, and yeah, I would wish that for everyone, but I ... like I said, "I do not judge anyone because many people are also born into very difficult circumstances or life happens." Someone who's very successful is killed in a car accident and gets cancer, you know, things happen, and the government, the society doesn't necessarily care for people very well and, you know, yeah, all those things obviously are disappointing.

Justine Maendel  40:02  
What I find most disturbing [leaving the community] is seeing children's dependence on technology. We have technology here. As you're fully aware, you know, I work on a computer [a good part of the day]. I have a phone, but ... for the most part, we try and keep our education ... computer-free, you know, screen-free as much as possible because it just really doesn't benefit kids and the statistics regarding social media use and all these things are alarming, you know, and to give children [really] the chance to ... to grow and develop and become the people that God wants them to be without these influences. I feel it's very important, and I think [actually] a lot of parents are distressed by it, but it's so prevalent in our culture as a person on your own as a couple with your kids. How do you fight it? You know, all their friends have phones, all their friends have iPads, so are you the stick in the mud, right? So we have the privilege of being able to raise our kids in an environment where all their friends ... everyone they go to school with ... is in exactly the same boat, and it's not an issue, but I could see how difficult that would be living in regular modern society.

Audio  41:23  
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Justine Maendel  41:25  
I didn't realize how much this place was a part of who I am until I left and, you know, went overseas and saw some very beautiful places, but there's something about the Catskills that ... especially in summer ... as you know, the ... the colors and the ... it's just so incredibly beautiful. Everything is so vibrant, like up here, the flowers ... I think it has something to do with altitude. The flowers seem brighter than in the valley, and, you know, to be able to just like walk out your back door and hike a mountain and get a stunning view is ... is pretty wild. There's very few people who have that privilege.

Brett Barry  42:06  
Many thanks to Justine, Milton, Daryl, Andreas, and to the whole Platte Clove community for inviting us in to record. "Kaatscast" is a biweekly podcast about everything Catskills. Be sure to subscribe, so you never miss an episode, and if you liked the show, please rate and review on the app of your choice. This helps other listeners find us. Discover more at kaatscast.com. I'm Brett Barry. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time.

Campbell Brown  42:37  
"Kaatscast" is supported by a generous grant from the Nicholas J. Juried Family Foundation and by listeners like you! If you'd like to make a donation, you can do so at kaatscast.com. Thank you!

Audio  43:00  
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