Leaving No Trace: Outdoor Ethics with Moe Lemire

Transcribed by Jerome Kazlauskas

Moe Lemire  0:03  
If I take a plastic water bottle and I leave it on the side of the trail, sometimes I've come back and the water bottle is gone. Someone else picked it up. Other times, they've come back and more trash has gathered around that water bottle because other people went ... "Oh, this is where the garbage goes."

Brett Barry  0:19  
Moe Lemire is a New York State Certified Hiking and Camping Guide and he's the volunteer (New York State Representative) for Leave No Trace; an organization that provides a framework through seven principles for recreating safely and sustainably. In July, a group of hikers was ticketed for carrying two full Adirondack chairs to the summit of Slide Mountain and leaving them there for public use. While their intention may have been good, a donation of comfortable seats with a view leaving anything behind flies in the face of Leave No Trace principles and laws on the books to protect our wild places. I met with Moe Lemire at Kaaterskill Falls to learn more about leaving no trace in the Catskills. Stay tuned. This episode is brought to you by Ulster Savings Bank. An award-winning bank where community matters. Meet the friendly staff at their Phoenicia and Woodstock locations. Call 866-440-0391 or visit them at ulstersavings.com. Member FDIC Equal Housing Lender. Thanks also to Briars & Brambles Books. The go to independent book and gift store in the Catskills, located in Windham, New York, right next to the pharmacy, just steps away from the Windham Path. Open daily. For more information, visit briarsandbramblesbooks.com or call 518-750-8599.

Moe Lemire  0:32  
So, I am Moe Lemire (New York State Certified Guide for Hiking and Camping). I have my own business icon guides, which I have been running full time since 2018. I am also a master educator with Leave No Trace and I am the volunteer (State Rep for New York) for Leave No Trace organization. It's based in Boulder, Colorado.

Brett Barry  2:16  
We've chosen a particular spot for this interview. Tell me what the significance of the spot is.

Moe Lemire  2:21  
We're on Kaaterskill Falls here in the Catskills (in Haines Falls; in the town of Hunter) and it's probably the most heavily visited outdoor location and all over the Catskills Park. So, when new visitors come here, this is the first place they go to. Good morning and here we go (THE CATSKILL CENTER STEWARDS)! How's the season going?

Brett Barry  2:42  
At the trailhead, we bumped into Jill and Milo. They're part of the Catskill Center's Catskill Stewards program (with a presence of Kaaterskill Falls and three additional high use sites).

Jill  2:52  
Oh, we just give people mostly directions of where to go if they haven't been here before and also give Leave No Trace principles. Make sure all trash comes back that people bring towards the falls and let them know that there are bears in the area. It seems very surprising people that there's not just squirrels here. But, yeah, we can make sure people follow the correct paths and not, you know, go towards social trails and avoid making rock stacks that can, you know, erode the Falls down there.

Brett Barry  3:20  
We'll hear more on social trails and rock stacks later in the program. Jill and Milo lamented that (just that morning) they were faced with the refuse of a confetti cannon that someone thought was a good idea.

Jill  3:32  
People were walking by us after we were picking up all the confetti and they were like ... "Oh, but it looks so nice in the sun," and they're like ... "Oh, it's horrible that people do that, but it looks so pretty," and we were (kind of), you know, explaining to people why it wasn't good for the environment that, you know, this small plastic things are attracted by birds and they get washed down into the falls and fish will eat them and (kind of), you know, small stuff (micro-trash) like that is really important to be aware of.

Brett Barry  4:02  
You mentioned beer cans and things like that or people just inconsiderate (stupid). What do you attribute this to?

Jill  4:10  
Yeah, I think it's because the dumpster is all the way up here and people they like their convenience and when they don't have it. They (unfortunately) just think of the area around them as their trash can. It's funny when people will hide trash. They'll hide it under rocks and behind bushes as if they know what they're doing is wrong. But ...

Moe Lemire  4:30  
Yeah.

Jill  4:30  
... do anyways.

Brett Barry  4:33  
Oh, yes and how to hike with the dog. That's another leave no trace bone of contention. Later in the show, we'll hear about best practices on that one, too. So, you're keeping track of how many people are coming in and out to.

Milo  4:45  
Yeah, we record the total number of visitors, we record the positive interactions we have like even if it's just like a wave like 'good morning.' We have a metric sheet that we fill out daily and we just (kind of like) do tally marks, we count the dogs that come in, the bikes, the people coming from the rail trail, stuff like that and we record it every day, then we submit these to jail who records it in like an online document form.

Moe Lemire  5:10  
Good data to have.

Milo  5:11  
Yeah, it is.

Brett Barry  5:13  
You know, a real high use area like this (really important place) to have some education about what Leave No Trace is all about. Can you tell me what it's all about (kind of) in a nutshell?

Moe Lemire  5:24  
Yeah, Leave No Trace, you know, when you boil it down to, it comes down to people's own personal ethics. There are seven principles of leaving no trace or outdoor ethics as we call it; and if folks follow these seven principles, it allows for many, many people to come and recreate in outdoor spaces and have minimal impacts versus a few people not following these seven principles and having major impacts. So, a place like here (Kaaterskill Falls), thousands of people are visiting this location every week and by, you know, implementing and teaching people leave no trace. The impacts to the land here will be much more minimal than if people just had a free for all.

Brett Barry  6:11  
I asked Moe to explain the seven principles. Here is number one.

Moe Lemire  6:15  
Number one ... plan and prepare is the most important part of leaving no trace. It's the ... the one principle people do usually the worst job at. Nowadays, with our cell phones and technology, people just (kind of) jump in the car and we'll figure it out along the way and (a lot of times) if you don't do that prior research, you're gonna show up at locations and be woefully unprepared and you may be also doing things you're not supposed to be. Certain parts of the country, you can't bring a dog with you. People (a lot of us) have dogs and people will show up with dogs; and if they don't know that, they could be ticketed. They could have a bad interaction with other people. So, doing that basic plan and prepare stage, do people know where you're going? Are you going out by yourself and no one knows where you are or do you have water with you? Do the right footwear. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. So, a perfect example of not planning and preparing correctly is one of the major calls for help that I have been witnessing here in the Catskill Park and also all over the northeast is people calling 911, calling emergency dispatch or a forest ranger and saying, "It got dark and I don't have any light." They didn't have a headlamp in their pack. As a hiking guide (as an outdoorsman), a headlamp is in my pack every day, all day, even if I'm going out for an hour. It's just ... it just lives there. It doesn't ever leave. I always check it to make sure it has new batteries and I always carry spare batteries in case the ones I have died. But it's surprising how many people don't realize that it gets dark after sunset and they don't have any sort of light with them or they're reliant on their cell phone. Say, "Well, I have the flashlight on my cell phone that ... that'll get me out of the woods," and if you've ever turned your flashlight on and your cell phone and let it run continuous while you're walking, it doesn't last very long. Your ... your phone dies. And so, the planet prepare stage is just the most crucial and most important part of all of leave no trace; and if you do that, the other six following suit.

Brett Barry  8:19  
Principle number two.

Moe Lemire  8:20  
Principle two ... choose the right path used to be called travel and camp on a durable surface. Choosing the right path is basically sticking to the trails. If you're out in the woods and you're hiking and many people walk in the same spot, vegetation gets trampled and ultimately that turns into mud, which will turn into dirt (which will turn into a hardpack surface); and once that happens, that's considered a durable surface and nothing's going to grow in it for many, many, many years. And so, our hiking trails that are marked like what we're on right now, this is considered a durable surface. Thousands of people can walk in the same place and have minimal impacts. If everybody that's coming to Kaaterskill Falls (decides to go) to the right here, walk through the woods. All that grass and all of that vegetation will be tripled and it will no longer exist. Folks have a tendency like if you see over here, they'll cut from one section of a trail to the other because they see people why don't ... why don't we go that way and when that situation happens and a lot of people understand this. Erosion can happen, and then the entire trail system can get washed out. Because water loves to flow downhill. And so, when you're recreating outdoors, stay on the trails. Don't cut them, don't make your own.

Brett Barry  9:34  
And the more people who cut through, the more people will cut through because it becomes more and more of what looks like an established trail?

Moe Lemire  9:40  
Scientifically speaking, they've done a study (if five people walk in a straight line into the forest, impact start). Other people may see that and go (where's this go?) and they start going that way, and then more people see that and start wandering that way and that's what I call the trail to nowhere and sometimes on a major hiking trail, you'll see a side trail going off (not marked or anything) and people just start following it and it gets longer and it gets longer, and then it just dead ends. These trails (or as we call them social trails) start forming all over the place because folks are leaving the main path. People talk to me, "But well, what about bushwhacking?" Because here in the Catskill Park, we have several peaks over 3,500 feet that are on a list that people want to hike. There's other mountains all over the park that people like to explore and hike and there's no trails on those. Then, what has happened at this point in the game, so many people have hiked these mountains that have no designated trail on it and they're sharing things like GPS tracks that a herd path (is what we call it) has formed because many people have walked in the same spot over and over again and you can (kind of) see a hardpack surface that no ferns are growing in (no moss, no vegetation). So, at this point, where this has already started forming and a durable surface is started to form. I'm trying to implement to folks if you're going to hike some of these mountains (here in the Catskills), stick to that formed herd path and let's not make any more. Because if we start going up the mountains all different ways in mass numbers, you know, say a mountain like Halcott may end up having seven herd paths going up to the summit. Do we need that many? The Catskills have mass amounts of land and people love to explore and bushwhacking, it's not a bad thing. It's just when many people do it on repeat in the same spot. That's where you get that compacted soil and that trail that gets formed. Not that many people are bushwhacking. The large numbers of people that are on the official prune trails that already exist and that's where we want to keep people stay on the trail. Tying into that on principle two is when you go camping, when you set up your tent and stick it on the ground and sleep in it, that weight is going to mush down whatever you're putting your tent on. And so, when you're trying to pick a campsite, you know, here in the ... in the Catskills, we have 32 shelters or lean-tos as we call them and those 32 lean-tos are built structure with a platform. So, thousands of people can camp in that. Every night, you can have six people and that lean-to again and again and again and the impact isn't going to ... it's already there; the building has been built. If you don't want to stick in the lean-to, try to find a designated campsite that has been built. There's sort of obvious places where tents have gone. If people camp on those again (every night), somebody's been camping there, durable surfaces already formed, the impacts will be minimal. If people just start camping anywhere, that's perfectly legal here in the Catskills and if you did plan and prepare stage, you would know that to camp in the Catskills (not an approved site), you have to be 150 feet away from a road, a shelter, water, and you have to be below 3,500 feet. If you did the plan and prepare stage, he would already know that information and a lot of people don't know that and they just will camp here. If you're under pine trees and there's nice pine needles (no vegetation), and then there's this huge section of ferns. Where's the best place to put your tent? You set it up in ferns, all that's gonna get mushed down and probably killed and may not come back next year and you (kind of) have to like pick and choose the best place to set up the situations. So, choose the right path. You want to (kind of) choose the right area to walk and camp to have the most minimal impacts to the land. So, it doesn't take much at all. Ah, it's beautiful! Look at all this is starting to grow in. So, this viewing platform was put in to allow folks to come to Kaaterskill Falls, view the falls from a safe, beautiful location and because the structure was built, people would go to use it and it focuses all that use, and then if you look around the falls, it's not all trampled like it was back in the eighties. Down below, you'll see all these different herd paths, but the vegetation starting to grow in. You can see where people have walked in the past; and if we let it, nature will return. A lot of improvements ... then a lot of money was put into Kaaterskill Falls to make it safer to focus everybody in the same area to minimize the impacts to the land. At this point, it's probably close to a million people have stood on this platform and the vegetation around it is (kind of), you know, come back.

Brett Barry  14:29  
Which brings us to principle number three?

Moe Lemire  14:32  
So, number three is pretty basic ... dispose of waste properly.

Brett Barry  14:37  
And that's when I think of Leave No Trace, that's probably the biggest one in my head.

Moe Lemire  14:41  
Yeah.

Brett Barry  14:42  
Not realizing there's all these other principles.

Moe Lemire  14:44  
Yeah and that's one thing about principle three ... dispose of waste properly. We think of garbage like beer cans and food and plastics. But also we have to think in terms of waste (dog waste, dog poop, human waste), you know, this ... these are all things that happen in the outdoors. And so, when it comes to regular garbage waste (if you did a plan and prepare) and you did that part of your pre-adventure, you may have a plan for ... alright, do we have a trash bag with us? What I do? I save old Ziploc bags that had other stuff in it and instead of throwing it away, I keep it as a trash bag for the day. Whatever waste that gets generated during the day tissues, I just stick in that Ziploc bag and seal it. If I see other trash out in the woods, I could pick it up, put it in there. But ...

Brett Barry  15:38  
Leave it better than you found it. That's something my parents used to tell me.

Moe Lemire  15:41  
And so, you'll hear this terminology (carry-in, carry-out). So, the carry-in make sure you carry it out. I like to say carry-in or carry-out more than what you carried in. So, if you see it, pick it up and if we all do that really has minimal impacts to the ... to the land and also to other visitors experiences. There's nothing like a buzzkill. Then, you're going to a beautiful view. There's a pile of poop. I've seen that before. It's like ... are you kidding me? Or, you get there and there's a pile of orange peels or pistachio shells and you want to sit and you're like ... sitting in someone's garbage pile. That's what it feels like to me and you would be surprised, but trash breeds trash and I've done this as experiments here in the Catskills. If I take a plastic water bottle and I leave it on the side of the trail, sometimes I've come back and the water bottle is gone. Someone else picked it up. Other times I've come back and more trash has gathered around that water bottle because other people went ... "Oh, this is where the garbage goes." So, here on the Catskills (I think as a team effort), many people work very hard to keep the trash out and people have a tendency when they don't see any trash. They're more conscientious of ... "Oh, I can't. They fell out of my pocket. Let me grab that." Whereas when you start seeing a lot of trash (around on the sides of trails and roads and parking areas), people just they get out of their cars (stuff goes flying). They're like ... "Oh, whatever," you know, it's already ... it's already been destroyed. So, probably the biggest issue we're seeing is the dog poop bags. You know, at this point, those that live in urban or suburban areas, we've trained ourselves. We have a pet dog starts to go. You get that dog poop bag and clean up after an animal (which is great) because you don't want to have dog poop all over the sidewalks or people don't want it in their front lawn out here in nature. I think people just go through that autopilot of doing that, and then when they get to the stage of tying it and throwing it away, there's no place to throw it away. There's no garbage can and they go ... what do I do with this? I don't want to stick it in my backpack. Well, let me hang it on this tree branch. Put it here and I'll pick it up on the way back. Then ... then, what will happen is they won't be paying attention. They'll forget. Then, you see dog poop bags floating around in the woods. Then, as we know, plastic does not biodegrade very quickly. So, we have now encapsulated this dog poop in a plastic bag. So, what can you do? Well, you can (for instance), buy some sort of like sandwich container that you specifically mark for dog poop, and then you can put the bags in that plastic container. Keep it in your backpack. If you're like ... "Oh, that's gross." The other option you can do like you would with human waste, you bury it. Let the dog do its thing, and then pull the leaf litter back. Dig a little bit of a hole. Get in there, bury a backup and it will start to biodegrade, and then for humans, there's multiple things you can do now they have things called Biffy Bags, where you do your business, you basically wrap yourself in a little plastic bag. There's powder to neutralize, sanitize, it all gets tied in and it's like multiple bag layer, and then you're sleeping in your trash bag. People are like ... I don't know about that. Then (in that case), he would dig an 8 inch cathole (as we call it a cathole). Getting 8 inches down, 16 inches. You're in that layer of duff because to break something down (organic material), you need three things. You need air, you need water, and you need microbes and the microbes is the one thing that people forget about, so when they have like orange peels, they just throw them on the ground. Oh, it'll break down. Not if it just sits on the surface. If you dig a hole 16 inches, do your business and then bury it. It'll start to break down. No one's gonna step in it. No one's gonna see it. Oh, here we go. As we are walking upon a plastic bottle that someone has thrown on the ground or maybe it fell out of their pocket.

We can only hope it fell out of their pocket. 

Yeah, we can only hope. 

Brett Barry  20:15  
But either way, you're gonna pick it up. Bring it back. While most dose that bottle, let's take a quick break and when we come back, Leave No Trace principles four through seven, and then which principle did those Slide Mountain hikers violate by having a couple of Adirondack chairs to the summit? Stay tuned for the answer. Right after this. Kaatscast is sponsored by the Hanford Mills Museum, where you can explore the power of the past as he watched the waterwheel bring a working sawmill to life. Bring a picnic to enjoy by the millpond (just be sure to pick up your trash when you're finished). For more information about scheduling a tour or about their new exploration days, visit hanfordmills.org or call 607-278-5744; and by the 52-mile Catskill Mountains Scenic Byway; following New York State Route 28 through the heart of the Central Catskills. For maps, itineraries, and links to area restaurants, shops, and accommodations, visit sceniccatskills.com. Back at Kaaterskill Falls, Moe Lemire revealed principle four for leaving no trace.

Moe Lemire  21:28  
Alright ... number four is leave what you find; and so (basically), it's a simple, you know, leave nature as you found it. I will talk specific Catskill specific stuff because, you know, different parts of the country have different issues based on what's happening. But here in the Catskills, leave what you find. When it comes to historical stuff, we have a lot of old hotels and old remnants of hotels and you'll see old dishes that were broken and pieces of pottery. Super cool! If you leave it for the next person to see it, what a cool experience! But what people have a tendency to do when they find the stuff. "Oh, I want to take that. That's so cool!" and then (honestly) what ends up happening to it; ends up in the drawer on a shelf, collecting dust, and then somebody goes ... "What is this?" and they throw it in the garbage last forever. And so, when you see those historical artifacts leaving, take pictures, you know, maybe pick it up and like look at it in fine detail to put it back where you found it and let other people that are coming after you (have that same cool experience). Think about others, and then like when it comes to things like nature (the natural setting). One of the things that we run into here a lot is rock stacking and people go ... what's the big deal? Who cares?

Brett Barry  22:49  
Cairns.

Moe Lemire  22:49  
Cairns is C-A-I-R-N. Not to be confused with K-A-R-E-N. So, a cairn (a purpose of a cairn is the way to mark a trail when you can't use a traditional blaze painted on a tree or like a metal disc or a plastic disc like we have here on the Catskills.

Brett Barry  23:09  
Overhearing our conversation, two passing hikers wondered out loud. What's a cairn?

Hikers  23:13  
What's a cairn?

Moe Lemire  23:14  
Cairn is a way to mark a trail. It's a rock stack.

Hikers  23:17  
The rock.

Moe Lemire  23:18  
It's a rock stack. So, here in the Catskills, we have a lot of people that try to be artistic and they'll make rock stacks and what happens is once ... one person does it, other people come. "Oh, I want to do that," and they start running through the forest, pulling up rocks, which is habitat, trampling vegetation, and it exponentially grows. And so, I'm a hiking guide here in the Catskills and I saw a cairn, you know, on the side of the trail and I left it. Came back a week later, there was four. Came back two weeks later, there was 36; and so you think about all those rocks where did they come from and that impacts the land. So, it's like exponential people don't think to do it. Same thing with a tree. Someone carves their name in it.

Hikers  23:58  
And it follows.

Moe Lemire  24:00  
The whole thing goes. Harvesting like ... for instance ... let's talk about ramps. People love ramps. Ramps are great. They taste great.

Brett Barry  24:09  
And for those who don't know ramp is like a wild onion.

Moe Lemire  24:13  
Yeah, yep, the wild onion.

Brett Barry  24:15  
The people go crazy and they were in the spring.

Moe Lemire  24:16  
Yep, the greens are delicious (great in salads, sautee). They're a delicacy in New York City restaurants and if you buy them in the markets, they're top dollar. When it comes to wild mushrooms, ramps, the rule of thumb is one can harvest for their own personal use. So, maybe for dinner for their family, but one cannot come here and harvest the entire hillside to sell at a New York City Market, you know, because there's a way to harvest ramp sustainably to allow them to come back. But if you're trying to make some money off of it, it's ... it's slower to harvest something sustainably and it's much quicker just to pull it and when you pull that ball though, it's gone forever. And so, leave what you find. Leave it as you found it.

Brett Barry  25:01  
Principle number five.

Moe Lemire  25:03  
And so (then), we got principle five ... be careful with fire. And so, you know, a lot of people have asked me in the past like, you know, what's ... what's the big deal about having a campfire and I'm like ... "Well, if you don't manage it correctly, you can burn a whole state down." We've seen that in the West Coast, you know, these massive fires that have killed hundreds of people and destroyed millions of homes because somebody had a campfire and they decided to leave it. Here in the Catskills, we are lucky enough to be a much wetter environment than (say) the West Coast. But we do have periods (especially) in the spring, we will have a really dry spell and our forest floor (rhododendron, mountain laurel). Some of our pine trees, they go up quick. They burn fast. The oils in their leaves act like a fuel. But when you have a campfire and you build a rock ring to have the fire in, you (basically) sterilize the ground. Because the heat (any seeds, grass, anything underneath that fire) has been burned and sterilized and it usually takes a couple of years for anything to grow back in that circle. Because everything that was there, it's been neutralized. And so, do you need to have a fire? You know, what's your purpose for having said campfire (if it's to cook)? Can you do something like a stove? Nowadays, with backpacking, there's a lot of lightweight stoves that boil water pretty quickly like jet boils and stuff. If you're somebody that must have a campfire (okay), what's the best way to do it? Can you find an established campfire ring that already exists? So, here in the Catskills, if you're planning and preparing and you're gonna go camping and you decide to stay at a lean-to, all of our lean-tos already have a fire pit in front of it. And so, by having a fire in that fire pit (that 4 x 4, that square), that ground has already been impacted and there could be a fire there every night in that same fire pit and that area is not going to have any more or less impacts and the number one thing about having a fire is make sure you put it out. You should be able to stick your hand where the fire was and not be burned and if you can't, then you didn't put it out properly. Walking away with a smoldering fire, if the wind picks up and nobody's there, sparks are coming out of it. That's where you can have a forest fire.

Brett Barry  27:30  
So, now we're on the other side of Kaaterskill Falls. We hiked around and ...

Moe Lemire  27:33  
We're down in what we call the bowl and, you know, having this trail system put in, it made for a safer viewing of this area. Because people will generally wanted to come here and they were trying to scramble on their own and people have died here because it's a very dangerous area when you're not sticking to the trail system. But you can see why people like to come here.

Brett Barry  27:55  
That's a beautiful spot.

Moe Lemire  27:56  
It's a beautiful spot.

Brett Barry  27:58  
It's a beautiful spot to contemplate Leave No Trace principle number six.

Moe Lemire  28:03  
Alright ... number six ... respecting wildlife. I always bring it back to plan and prepare. If you're going to recreate somewhere in the country and you (kind of) do some research, you may learn ... "Oh, that hiking trail has falcons that are nesting in the month of August." And so, park staff have asked people not to hike there in the month of August. Sections of parks get closed now. Because asking people not to go hasn't worked so well. So, now it's like ... you're not allowed to go. So, when you're in the woods, respecting wildlife, you know, observe it from a safe distance. It's quite beautiful to see a bear in nature or deer, but don't harass animals. Don't taunt animals. Also, when we talk about respecting wildlife, I should tie into food storage, especially a popular destination like Kaaterskill Falls. People are here and they're picnicking and they're having snacks and lunch and they see a bird or chipmunk. They throw food at ... "Oh, look!" Now, we're training that bird or chipmunk to come to us for food. They can stop learning the ability to fend for themselves, and then when late October comes and all the tourists go home and that chipmunk comes running to the edge of the trail and standing there waiting for people to come and they don't come (chipmunk doesn't make through the winter). Don't ever feed wildlife. Do everything in your power to keep your food safe. Keep it wrapped up.

Brett Barry  29:47  
You have a bird feeder, Moe?

Moe Lemire  29:48  
I do not.

Brett Barry  29:50  
Do you think it applies to that as well?

Moe Lemire  29:51  
That's a tough one because this is where leave no trace comes into your own personal ethics, you know, it's like a sliding scale. You could be over here and leave no trace to the left or way over here and leave no trace to the right (that everybody can fall in between) and for somebody that has a bird feeder, they're interacting with nature. They're learning about nature, and then the wintertime food scarce, but if that person leaves the bird feeder out all year, now you're changing, really changing the habit of that set animal. Once you get to spring, take them down. A lot of times, it's mostly for the bears. But you don't want to have that bird reliant on that bird feeder because what if you move and sell the house, the next people don't put a bird feeder out (hardcore, leave no tracer). They would probably say, "No bird feeder because you are changing the habitat or the nature of the bird." But if someone has a bird feeder and have kids and they're learning about the birds, they're connected to nature as, you know, growing. The impacts of folks connecting to birds in nature like that could send them down a path to be a huge ambassador for nature. So, you know, it's a lot of that. Weighing some of those options, you know, leave no trace is not rules like you must, it (sort of) comes down to your own personal ethics.

Brett Barry  31:18  
And now, Leave No Trace principle number seven.

Moe Lemire  31:23  
Finally, we have number seven. Number seven of Leave No Trace ... respecting others. If you follow the other six principles, you are respecting others and people (kind of) look at me like ... what do you mean? So, if you plan and prepare properly, you have a much, much, much less chance of having to call search and rescue for help; causing that search and rescuer potentially missing their 4-year-old's birthday party because that's what they do. They come and help people and they're coming. There's been this awkward, uncomfortable realization that I'm starting to hear about or see and it's (sort of) like people, their plan B is ... I'll call the ranger. Having a search and rescue team, having rangers, having volunteers that come out and help people is wonderful, but that shouldn't just give people the sense of why don't have to prep for anything. I'll just call for help and that's something that a trend I hope doesn't continue to grow. Because that's not respecting another person just ... "Oh, they'll just come get me." Some of the owners should be on you to have some stuff with you. Have a headlamp, have relatively good footwear, have some sort of plan, have a map, being out in the woods, bumping into people and they'll ask me questions. My first thing I'll say to them is take out your map and I'll point to you where we are and they just look at me blankly. So I'll say, "Alright ... take out your phone and open your tracking device with the map and I'll show you where we are," and they still look at me blankly (not even having a sense of where you are). It's like ... I see so many people putting themselves in grave danger and they have no idea. It does worry me the lack of unprepared people I bumped into out here and I look at it as how as a community, a society, a nation, we can encourage more people to come outside, but be better prepared. Be aware of people around you. So, don't be shouting to one another in the forest. Don't be playing loud music that people can hear like what's coming and you just hear this noise. Music can be a very healing and a huge part of someone's outdoor adventure. When I thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail, I listened to music a lot, but I had an ear button. So, I had it just in the fact of in my own personal space. Sometimes, the ear buds when my ... when I was sweaty, they'd fall out. So, I would clip my phone on my chest and I would play music (very low volume) that I can only hear; and as soon as I saw somebody coming, I paused it. Turned it off. I said, "I'm so sorry," and they said, "For what?" and I said, "Oh, I was playing music. Oh, we didn't know." But I premised it was a great interaction versus you're hiking along with a group of friends with a speaker hooked on your backpack. You just totally was a buzzkill for that group that we're out here to have some solace in the woods. You know, everybody's out here for a reason and you don't necessarily know that person's story. And so, trying to be respectful of their own experience in nature is important.

Brett Barry  34:51  
And also, hiking with dogs (keeping them on leashes that also probably plays into this one)?

Moe Lemire  34:56  
Yes, exactly. I mean, being out in the forest with an animal is wonderful. But, you know, people have a fear of dogs, there could be so many reasons for that and by respecting another person (perfect example), I'll be hiking with a client. We're coming down and we see somebody coming with a dog and you see the person stop and they're holding on to their dog and they're like ... "Hey, how are you? Are you dog friendly?" We start talking, "Oh, I love dogs!" and they let the dog go and they have dog runs over to me and, you know, it's great. It's a great experience! There have been times where a person says nothing sees us dog comes charging ... "Oh, they're so friendly," and now is jumping and claws are going into my chest and I'm like ... "Alright ... this is not cool." Like ... what is going on here? And so, simple respect.

Brett Barry  35:50  
And that goes for Main Street?

Moe Lemire  35:52  
Yeah.

Brett Barry  35:52  
Any of the towns, too.

Moe Lemire  35:53  
Totally, totally.

Brett Barry  35:54  
A lot of these principles carry over not just from the trail. But, you know, public spaces are ...

Moe Lemire  35:59  
So, a few living.

Brett Barry  35:59  
... living life.

Moe Lemire  36:00  
Yeah, if you look at Leave No Trace (I say) in everyday life, you could do all seven principles every day. Every day, they can connect in some capacity and they're all interconnected. All seven principles are all connected and if folks start with number one (plan, research, prep), what do I need? What should I bring? Where am I going? Who am I telling, (the what, where, why, when)? It all just will cascade down into one another.

Brett Barry  36:28  
And there you have it. The seven principles of Leave No Trace ... (1) plan and prepare; (2) travel and camp on durable surfaces; (3) dispose of waste properly; (4) leave what you find; (5) minimize campfire impacts; (6) respect wildlife; and (7) be considerate of others. So, my question for Moe, which of these did those hikers violate when they decided to donate a couple of Adirondack chairs to the summit of Slide Mountain? So, three hikers carried some wooden Adirondack chairs to the summit of Slide Mountain ...

Moe Lemire  37:09  
Yep.

Brett Barry  37:09  
... with the intention of leaving them there for public use.

Moe Lemire  37:11  
Yes.

Brett Barry  37:14  
Some might say, "What a nice gesture!" Their wooden chairs are going to break down anyway and, you know, maybe someone who is tired at the top could use a place to sit and enjoy the view.

Moe Lemire  37:27  
So ...

Brett Barry  37:28  
Probably good intentions?

Moe Lemire  37:29  
Totally.

Brett Barry  37:30  
Which of the principles is that one violating and why?

Moe Lemire  37:33  
So, okay. So, that would fall under number three ... carry and carry out (dispose of waste properly). Is it considered trash probably to not the individuals? What I consider a trash? Yeah. Why? Well, Slide Mountain is the tallest mountain in the Catskills. It's remote. It's far away from any road. There's no signs of man. Yes, there's a few carvings in stones from 1860 and stuff like that. But if I was to walk up on Slide and come across Adirondack chairs, it totally takes the feel of Slide Mountain away from what it is for me; leaving it there (changes the whole dynamics of what a wilderness area is). The wilderness area is (basically) as nature intended. You did plan and prepare and you understood rules and regulations. A non-conforming structure can't be on the forest preserve. And so, an Adirondack chair is a non-conforming structure. It's not part of a natural scenery. And so, those people ... it wasn't a malicious thing. It was just they didn't know. You know, they're probably correlating it to ... Central Park has benches, Harriman has benches. We hike Bear Mountain. You come around and there's this hand-built wooden bench out of like tree logs and branches. It's beautiful. Beautiful place to sit. Harriman (the amount of visitors there and the feel of Harriman) is so much different than the Catskills. We want it to be wilderness. We want that. Feel like you're a middle of nowhere, even though we're only three hours from New York City, which is pretty remarkable. You think about it.

Brett Barry  39:21  
To learn more about Leave No Trace, check out lnt.org; and if you'd like to take a hike with Moe, you can find him at hikeonguides.com. Our thanks to Moe and to the Mountain Eagle, covering Delaware, Greene, and Schoharie counties, including brands for local regions like the Windham Weekly, Schoharie News, and Catskills Chronicle. For more information, call 518-763-6854 or email: mountaineaglenews@gmail.com. Kaatscast is now a two-time winner of the Chronogrammies Best Regional Podcast Award. Please subscribe. Tell your friends about us and be sure to give us a rating, so more listeners can find us. I'm Brett Barry. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.