Outdoor Guides of the Catskills: The “Adventure Experts”

Beth Waterman 10:04
Today's program falls within the purview of this Ashokan Watershed Stream Management Plan, because it deals with stewardship and environmental education. And without further ado, I'd like to introduce our speakers, the program today features guides. The adventure experts are here with us today. So I will just introduce all four of them briefly. Then we'll have a conversation and I encourage you to ask questions whenever you would like. And afterwards we'll have some cookies and networking and hang out down the hall. I think the guides brought some things to show and so we'll have a little show and tell. So starting up with Cliff Schwark. Cliff is a lifelong angler and has been a licensed guide since 2005. Member of NYSOGA, I believe. And Cliff was one of the founders of Catskill mountain Trout Unlimited, which was the first chapter founded in Kingston in the 60s; first chapter in New York State. So Cliff has a long commitment to environmental conservation, and recreation. Patti Rudge was New York State's first full time female forest ranger, now retired. Patti works with the guides program as a water safety instructor. Will Soter is the president, current president of New York State Outdoor Guides Association, NYSOGA, and he's going to tell us about that organization. And he's also a full time professional guide, which he'll tell us more we're about, with Upstate Adventure Guides. And Hank Rope, Big Indian Guide Service. Hank moved up here in 1991 and has been a full time professional guide since then, and Hank is a life member of NYSOGA. So without further introductions, Cliff, we'll start with you.

Cliff Schwark 12:30
I'll start by giving you a little of my fly fishing history and how I got into guiding, which will hopefully lead into discussions with the rest of us here. I had a very good friend who had a grandfather who had a camp on the Woodland Valley Stream, he rented this camp. And eventually he built another camp up on the Silver Hollow stream, Warner Creek. And as a young boy, young teenager, I convinced my parents to give me a cheap fly rod outfit. And I used to go up there and fish. During the school years when I was still in school, I'd go up during the weekends, and I would fish from as much as I could Friday night, and I would be gone all day Saturday, and all day Sunday. I'd take a sandwich, and that's the last they'd see of me. And I guess you could say I was a fanatic. Well, I kept doing this. And then eventually, I would go up weekends. And then I would fish Friday night, all day Saturday, and all day Sunday. And so basically, I guess you could say I was self taught. I learned I guess the hard way. I learned by experience, but I just kept doing it until I figured it out. I will be very honest with you. I've been fly fishing for 70 years, I still haven't quite figured it out. And I'm still working. I'm still trying to work at it. So yeah, so I've been going for 70 years, with the exception of, you know, while I was in the military, and when I was in college. Other than that, I've been pretty much steady fly fishing. Then I was teaching friends how to fly fish, I was teaching classes at TU and giving the lectures to organizations and things like that. And so I wasn't doing it as a professional guide, I was just doing it. I decided as I started getting ready to retire, I thought that would be a good retirement for me. So I started developing a course, two days schools, various schools, and then got my guiding license. When did I get that, I got that in 2005. And so I started as soon as I retired, I started guiding professionally. And I belong to your organizational also. I did it primarily because I had so much, so many years of experience and knowledge of the sport, 70 years worth, I thought I would like to share that with other people, and give them the knowledge and the love that I have had for the sport, and pass that on. By passing it on, too, with getting people into fly fishing, you start to get conservationists, environmentalists, because they're the type of people that will now protect your streams. So I never, I never really did it for profit. The bucks were nice. But I used them to finance Western trips, or buy some fancy fly rods and things like that. But as that old pop song goes, I was only in it for the love. And that was basically it, it was never a profit. I thought that... I retired in 2017... bad knees, bad shoulder, everything started to wear out, I am 85. And, and my balance started... you can't have those things and take people out on a stream. That's absolutely taboo.

I thought I'd just give you six things that will probably open up the discussion, what I think it takes to be a good guide. One is you got to know your subject. Obviously I do. If I don't after 70 years, I never, I never will. But I'll give you just a brief story. I was at a TU meeting, a young lady approached me. She said, I understand you’re a guide. I said yes I am. She said, how do you become a guide? Well, I said, you gotta go to state, do some studying, you've got to take a test, and so forth, so forth. She was very young. I said, well, what, do you want to be a fly fishing guide? Yes. I said, how long you been fly fishing? She said, I started last month. Well, obviously I didn't say what was on my mind. I never saw her again, which was fine. But anyway... [laughter] The second thing is you've got to be a good and patient teacher. You come across all sizes and shapes out there. A lot of people are not at all familiar with the environment or walking in streams, walking on rocks, or being in the wilderness. Some people are very uncomfortable. So you got to be very patient with these people, because, and some of them are just plain klutzy, just a fact. And you know, teach them to fly cast and things like that, it can be very difficult. So you got to be very patient with these people. You got to be physically capable. I was talking before that, you know, you got to be able to carry a backpack, if you're going in the Adirondacks, backpacking people into the ponds. You gotta carry canoes, and you got to be physically ready in case something happens to the person, you're responsible for these people. Obviously, I don't have my balance, I can't guide anymore, I wouldn't even think I could. I don't have the strength now. But you never know what you're going to come across. And you got to be prepared. The next item is you got to be prepared for unexpected emergencies. You just don't know what's going to happen, for instance. And I always ask people, do you have a heart condition? Do you have this? Do you have that? So I'm ready, in case. Are you allergic to bee stings? I always carry ... you're not supposed to do this, but I always carry that pen with me just in case. I'm not supposed to do that. I'm not authorized to do that. But if a guy's there and he got a bee sting, his throat started swelling, I'm going to hit him with that. I'll make that decision right there. But, but you never know what you're going to get out there. So that's one of the things... you got to be honest with people, you can't tell them, look, yeah, I'm a great guide. I'm gonna get you 100 fish today. No question. No, you don't do that. All you promise is, you'll do your best to give them a good time. And you'll teach them the best you can, but you got to be reasonable. And then you got to give good value. I usually wear out the people that go out with me, because I'm experienced out there. Most of the people, they tire because they're trying hard to learn to cast, walking on rocks and walking in the stream. I've got some good stories later, that can talk about some of these. some of these events, okay. But I, if at the end of the day, and it's getting dark, and the flies start coming off the water, and I know it's time to go home, I won't leave, if they don't want to leave, I'll stay there. Because that's, I think it's only fair. Maybe all day, you haven't had any success. And now you're going to. I'll stay there 'til they say uncle... [laughter] And so anyway, that's that's my little pitch in the beginning here. And I'll be glad to, if time permits, I got some stories I think you'll find humorous and so on, so forth.

Beth Waterman 20:43
Thank you, Cliff. How about you, Hank? Another veteran.

Hank Rope 20:47
I probably shouldn't catch 100 fish a day. And I'm going on June 1... [laughter] Well, anyway, I kind of got a, hey, how do you become a guide? It's an easy thing. Well, back when, a while back when I decided to be a guide. I was going up to the NYSOGA rendezvous. And this was what they said, if you've ever been a Boy Scout or a Girl Scout read this book. And that's the test. And it worked for me. And now today (laughs) things are different. You have to have a license. If you're going to take any money to fish, hunt, camp, hike, whitewater raft, canoe, kayak, rock and ice climb; all those categories. And the DEC looks at it and says, Well, if you're going to take somebody out, and they're going to take you out and buy you a nice dinner, technically, you need a guide's license, okay? The tests are given every month in DEC headquarters. The best way to take this test is to wait until March and go to the New York State Outdoor Guides Association. Because you can get your safe boating, your water, what you need, believe it or not, you need water safety if you're going to guide rock climbers, so figure that one out, right. And if you go to the rendezvous, they're also going to do a little better than they did years ago, and not tell you to be a Boy Scout. They have a practice exam. It costs you a few bucks, you're going to go there on a Thursday night, spend Thursday, Friday. And I always think you should stay for the banquet, we always have a really good time. When you take the exam, this little lady up in Albany, Colleen, she's gonna send you all your paperwork that you need. And the program is run actually by the Division of Forestry. And that's who she works for. Same people that provide us with the forest rangers. And Colleen has been working there too long to mention, but she does all the paperwork. She's real efficient, she's real good. But, so the DEC is really what overlooks the guides. But they will ask you for your identification. And if you're a guide, you need your guide's license, you need this little brass doohickey over here, and you have to have it displayed. So when you're guiding, you need your physical license, you need a copy of a current CPR card and a current first aid card. Now in order to get all that stuff, they'll let you take the exam and then put it in later on. And when you finally do that you also need a note from your doctor on their paperwork. They don't just take a scribbled note. And the doctor has to say that you're capable of being a guide. And when you finally get to the point, you're going to take a test, it's going to be 50 questions and 20 other questions on what your specific guiding is going to be. I don't know how long you get for the test. I never pay attention, but it's half a day right?

Will Soter 24:42
Yeah, I think they give you way more time than anyone's ever taken.

Hank Rope 24:45
Okay. I don't pay attention to it. I'm usually there doing something else. Time flies at the rendezvous. If you, if you want to be a guide, you have to be as Cliff already brought up, you have to be, I think, an outdoor person, and you have to like people. That all goes together. What else we got here? Once you pass that exam, Colleen is going to take about a week to send you your guide's license. And she's a great girl, she does, I don't know how many people know her up there. But when you renew your license, she also takes care of it for you, and she tries to come to our rendezvous. Anybody have any questions they want to ask me about what you actually have to do?

Beth Waterman 25:38
How long is the license good for?

Hank Rope 25:40
Oh, good question. Five years. So I'm on my fifth renewal, I think, something like that. I'm waiting for somebody to give me a retirement party. like Cliff. [Laughter] It's good for five years and every five years, you have to have another doctor's notice. However, it's going to be every two years now that you have to have CPR and first aid. They expire at the end of two years. They just changed that this year. You don't want to hear what it used to be. It's two years. And so if... a mental blank... my friend, ex-friend Bruce Fuller, told the game warden down in Margaretville... can't think of his name... and told him... anyway, Bruce told him that when you're going to check a guide’s license, you have to make sure he has CPR and first aid. So here he comes out of the bushes. I'm down there with a customer. And he's waving to me, you know. Okay, so I walk over, and he asks to see my license, and I show it to him. And then he says, I need to see your CPR and first aid. Nobody ever asked me that until Bruce went and told him about it. But if you don't have it, you're guiding without a license. So it's something that you have to remember to keep up. And another advertisement, you can get that if you go to NYSOGA. Come to the rendezvous and you can get your CPR and first aid. You can also take it in local hospitals given by the Red Cross. I took it once in Kingston hospital. That was a mistake. It was all day long. And the test was like, that long, because it was for nurses. And it was a tough test, you know. Anybody have any questions? That's about it from me.

Beth Waterman 27:48
I think, you know, we've heard a lot about NYSOGA. So Will, let's let's hear from you, as president of this organization.

Will Soter 27:56
Yeah, sure. So I'll kind of go way back to the beginning of how the guides association actually got started and kind of go through a brief overview of how it got to be where it is now. So about 128 years ago, the guides association first formed, and that was kind of in response to the train in 1887, making its way all the way up to Saranac. So kind of like we're seeing today with social media, all of a sudden, people were outpacing the ability to connect with knowledgeable people out of the field. So there's, you know, it's no longer a jarring stagecoach ride that only the hardiest, and most avid anglers or hunters would, you know, need to undertake to get to this in the heart of the Adirondacks back then. So there was a big rush of people getting up there. And naturally, there was people trying to cash in on it saying, oh, yeah, I know where you can catch fish, I know where you can get game. And they were going out with guides who weren't real bona fide guides, and it started to really impact the reputation, not just of the area, but of the industry as a whole. So 128 years ago, the first meeting of guides came together, and they said, you know, we've got to figure out what we all agree upon, because there's different things based on different disciplines, or if you're a hunter, you may have, you know, some different concerns than an angler. So they really looked at what are the things that we all can rally around. One was, you know, promoting the professionalism of the guiding industry that you can find a knowledgeable person who is physically capable and knowledgeable in a particular area or, you know, activity. The other was, you know, helping protect the resources. They understood even back then, as they saw things, you know, were starting to be just exploited that, you know, if they didn't work with their partners in the then forest commission, now DEC, that the resources could be exploited to the point that the very bedrock of their, you know, industry, could be undermined. without healthy fisheries, without abundant game, without, you know, protecting the forest, the lands and waters, there's nowhere beautiful to take these people. So it was very, you know, even back then it was understood that they needed to play their role in protecting the resources. Flash forward to the early 1980s. And there again, was a rush of people getting outdoors. This time, there were different activities that started to become popular. So people going further afield, hiking clubs, and and people getting the guides license that were bringing, you know, bringing people up to the high peaks to you know, bag peaks. So there was more in popularity around backpacking and things like that, getting people further afield. And there was some concern about how easy it was to become a guide at that point. So NYSOGA was one of a bunch of different organizations that worked with the DEC to help kind of figure out what qualifications, what minimum qualifications they would need to be, and they actually helped develop the current licensing exam. And actually, we're still working with the DEC today to, you know, kind of reevaluate the standards of what certifications we need to hold.

So it's, you know, it's been a part of the, the guides history to to make sure that, you know, the public is aware that there are people out there and, you know, what they should really look for in a guide. You know, not just someone who has all of the props, you know, someone who's got a bunch of fishing poles and, oh, yeah, I live near the river. I've been, you know, I've grown up here all my life, I know where to find fish, Well, you know, you might be an expert amongst your friends, but are you an expert? And do you know how, and are you physically, you know, capable of, and are you prepared for those unexpected things, as Cliff mentioned, there's a lot that goes into it.

Will Soter 34:31
So those are the ones that Hank mentioned before. So it's hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, rock and ice climbing... whitewater.

Hank Rope 34:42
Whitewater rafting.

Patti Rudge 34:44
But interestingly enough, and if it's okay to just kind of break in like this, I understand that you do not need to have a guides license, if you simply want to take somebody for a paddle on flat water, and you charge a fee.

Will Soter 35:01
There is an endorsement on the license. But it is not a licensed category as of yet

Patti Rudge 35:04
Isn't that interesting?

Will Soter 35:05
It's very interesting. It's something we're working, we've been nudging to get included, there's currently a Senate bill out there that will kind of raise the bar for the standards of guiding, that will request a little bit more of guides. Going back to what Cliff mentioned, and this is part of the code of ethics, is that truth in advertising, that accuracy and the information you're presenting to your customer, that you actually, you know, have a contract that outlines the services that you're providing and the things that they can expect. So that's one of the things that's included in that. There's some other aspects to it that hold guides to a higher standard as far as being safe out there, and you know, paddling is one of those things, because just because there's not, you know, dynamic water, not whitewater, doesn't mean that you can't get yourself way over your head. And, you know, which I was thinking about recently on a paddling trip I took just two weeks ago. And as I was thinking about, wow, if I went in this water right now in the middle of a lake, I would really need those folks in that other boat to get me out, because I wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to swim myself to shore because the water's so cold. So you know, flat water paddling is not something that should be taken lightly. And it really should be included in the licensing program.

Cliff Schwark 36:26
One advantage of your organization also is you put out a yearly magazine. Personally, I have gotten a lot of jobs through that. I'd say, how did you find out about me, and they'd say, well, we saw it in the magazine.

Will Soter 36:40
Yeah, still to this to this day, just like the original Adirondack guides Association. So in the '80s, when there was that second boom, that the organization reorganized and became a statewide organization, and we still promote awareness of the industry, but we also promote awareness of our members. So we make sure that folks, you know, who are looking to hire a guide, can find a guide that's in their region, and that guides in the discipline. So we have a public, we have publications, and then we also have our website, and folks can go on there, they can, you know, search for a guide by activity, they can search for a guide by region, they can also just put in a request that says, on this date, I want to go to this area, and I want to see this thing. And here's how many people. And it'll go on to all of our members. And the members who feel like they're best qualified, can send them a reply, which is a really, it's a great resource for folks looking to connect with someone, because otherwise it can be kind of an endless search. And usually the only thing that pops up at the top of the list is, you know, the thing that's advertised the most. So this is a great, great way to really get folks into the depths of of each one of these regions or activities.

Beth Waterman 37:53
Patti, as a former forest ranger, what would you say is the value of having a guide?

Patti Rudge 38:00
What I would say is that anytime users come to the backcountry, wilderness areas or wild forest, the better educated they are, the better everyone's going to come out at the end. You know, so having had a guide, even if it was just a telephone exchange, or an exchange of maps and information and brochures, those people then come to the preserve, prepared. They have a wonderful time, they share that wonderful time, and it becomes this tremendous domino effect in the right direction. When we don't have enough educators out there, whether they're guides or rangers, or some type of environmental educator, then things frequently start tumbling with a very small misstep, and they go in the wrong direction. So when we have guides out there, fishing guides, hunting guides, those are the two that I would see the most... I did see some backpacking guides in my tenure, but not many at that time, I think it's a building, I think it's growing now... but those folks that were out there with a guide were undeniably having a much better time than if they had not had a guide with them. Because it isn't just the the formalities of the information that gets shared. It's the pleasantries. It's the relaxation, it's having lunch together, how many times I would walk up on a stream and encounter a guide with their client, and usually they weren't fishing. They're oftentimes just sitting brookside, more or less, and it will be lunch hour that I had stopped in on. And they would be having the nicest relaxed exchange. And if that isn't the way to celebrate the backcountry, I don't know what is. So it was just something, it was a really good reminder to me of a beautiful exchange. And that's really what should be going on out there. So I only have, you know, good things to say with regards to those kinds of relationships, I can say that when things go sour in the backcountry, they go bad very, very quickly. And it takes a great deal of resources to fix things, to bring things back to a level of stability, and then a recovery to get people back out of the, out of the woods. So if we can get people in the woods with good information, good guidance,
good skills. Part of that is communication. The communication was touched on earlier, how well you need to communicate before you start your guiding, really sharing upfront, what it is that you can provide. And does it match the expectation. When things would go poorly is when an expectation would be high. And if not a guide, but who's ever in charge of a group, is trying desperately to meet that expectation, and it's not reasonable, whether it's the weather that's moved in, or the group dynamics, the size of the group, many things can start to tumble and go wrong. And usually when one thing goes wrong, other things fall in poorly behind it. And that's when the rangers would end up being notified. And then a whole group of us would have to go in and try to stabilize, find the problem, stabilize the problem, and then evacuate the problem. So that would be how I would get involved in a situation where things have gone awry in the backcountry. I have to honestly tell you, I don't have any stories of something going awry with a guide in their presence. Not in the Catskills, not in Region 3, I can package it like that. I know that I brought a few props with intention, and that is everyone needs to know where they're going. And it's kind of, I say this somewhat tongue in cheek, but you need to have really good skills, and it is not always with a map and compass that I use this as a, as a prop; you need to know where you're going when you're guiding. You need to know what your real goal is with your clients. Is it to catch X number of fish? Is it to bag the largest buck? Or is it to make sure you get to the top of that ice climb regardless? And I say it all with that emphasis, because I want you to know what the answer is. The answer is no! In case You aren't clear on that.

Cliff Schwark 42:34
It's more important to get back.

Patti Rudge 42:35
That's right. That's right, you need to get back. And you need to be able to shake each other's hands at the end of the day and say, well, we gave it a good try. And a really good try. But everybody came home at the end of the day, and not to be morose. But I will tell you that I've had the terrible position of being in an emergency room and having to speak with family when sombody passed in the backcountry. It is an awful position to be in. And I share it like this each time I teach a water safety class. You don't want to find yourself in that position. There's no way you're going to make those decisions to continue on your adventure at any risk of having to make that kind of phone call at the end of the day. Nothing's worth it. It's just retreat. And we'll try again another day. Another time.

Will Soter 43:28
Yeah, Cliff mentioned being a patient teacher. And sometimes what's giving you that frustration is not the client, sometimes it's the conditions out on the ground. I know you can plan a perfect itinerary and sit down and plot it out on the map and, you know, it warms up in the snowshoe trip. Now all of a sudden, you're snowshoeing through mashed potatoes. And it's slowing you down to about a mile an hour or even worse, sometimes. So you just look at it. And you start to realize you're not making your milestones. And there's lessons, there's things that you can teach the person in there, and you can keep them excited about what's happening without making that goal. And as Patti said, the important part is not getting to the top, not, you know, filling that bag limit. It's about bringing that client back safely. And happily. And hopefully with a little bit of knowledge of where, you know, where those things went wrong, you know, that kept you from that goal, but not where they went so wrong, that kept you from ever trying again. And, you know, it's a really humbling lesson when you get out there and you're all excited. And you think, you know, you've made this perfect plan and you're going to, you know, tackle that challenge, and nature gives you that little reminder that you know what, there's some other variables you need to consider. And that's where really, you know, paying attention and being aware, not getting wrapped up in that excitement, because it's a very exciting job. So it gets easy to go right along with the excitement of the client. Oh, yeah!! But you know, it's our job to pay attention to those little clues that sometimes add up, you know, if we're not being paying attention, to be a big issue. And the backcountry is not the place where you want any issue. So, you know, being mindful, being aware, paying attention to those small things and knowing when to say, you know what, I think we're going to make an adjustment here. And you know, when that client gets back to the car, and they still have all their fingers and toes, and they're not shivering and cold, they're happy, because you know what, on that way back, they can start to, you know, they start to get a sense of, you know, why you made that turn around. Maybe when you made that turn around, they're not quite feeling it yet. So they're kind of like, I don't know, you know. But when they get back there, and you know, all their fingers and toes are not frozen, they can really kind of see and, you know, pointing out why you made that decision, and what factors are starting to stack up against you not only help, you know, justify why you made that decision to turn around, but you're helping to educate that person so that they can then recognize those things when they go out on their own. You know, I always tell clients, I said, you know, I'm not looking to make your return customer over and over again, I'm looking to help you become better at doing this. Maybe you come back and discover another thing with me. But really, you know, I view our role is, as you know, somewhat of an educator. And we do have to be patient, whether that's with the client or the conditions that we find ourselves in.

Cliff Schwark 46:19
I find that there's a level of experience-people in the wilderness in some cases that are just zero. I can remember I had two policemen from New Jersey, Trenton, New Jersey, and they had their two sons. And I had these people eight miles back in the Adirondacks. And it started to rain, and the kids were running around in the rain. Then they'd get wet. They went back into the tent, changed her clothes. They did this two times. And I said to the kid, I said, Look, you're going to run out of clothes. She said, he said, That's not a problem. We'll put it in the dryer. [Laughter] Actually said that. Can you believe that? Oh, yeah.

Beth Waterman 47:19
Now when you guys, Hank, do you also, you're a fishing guide. Let's just make that clear. Do you fish with your clients?

Hank Rope 47:28 Never.

Cliff Schwark 47:29 Why?

Audience 50:13
When is your next water safety course and where?

Patti Rudge 50:17
Well, I teach water safety classes on request, quite frankly. So if there are one, two or three, it doesn't really matter if you need it. I'll be glad to meet you. And I teach them up to the Pine Hill Community Center.

Will Soter 50:30
I have one coming up in July in High Falls, as well.

Audience 50:34
How much does it cost?

Patti Rudge 50:37
The class itself doesn't cost anything. It's just the fee that you have to pay online. And I think that's $60.

Mark Loete 50:45
Water safety lasts for a lifetime. You don't have to renew the water safety.

Beth Waterman 50:48
What kind of guiding do you do, Will?

Will Soter 50:54
I do primarily camping trips. So whether it's backpacking or canoe camping trips. And I'll do long distance hikes here in the Catskills, I prefer to get off the beaten track too, so I'll go to areas that are a little less frequented by folks, I'm not going up to, you know, check off the list of the 3500 peaks, I have done that. And I will do that on request with clients. I do have some clients that are, you know, looking to check those lists and they'll, you know, hire my services for that. But the favorite trips that I do and the stuff that I'll put on my calendar are camping trips, I've been going up to the Adirondacks to St Regis canoe area for the past couple of years and doing canoe camping trips up there, which is just a truly marvelous, how, just how far you can get back with, you know, not quite as much effort, you know, relatively easy hikes, you carry a lightweight canoe, a Kevlar canoe. The one I use is a 24 foot four person canoe, and it weighs about 60 pounds. Which is less than my 15 foot aluminum canoe. So you can get pretty far back and you can get a nice group of people back there and really enjoy some, you know, some pristine wilderness areas out there, and that's, I've noticed with groups, especially if they'll stay out, you know, if you have groups who have the time who stay out more than three days, once you hit that fourth day, there really becomes a transformation with the people, they start to kind of realize, you know, those things that are kind of unnecessary in their lives back home, the things that are conveniences, they're nice things to have, which is why we have them, but they realize how much of that is unnecessary, and really just, you know, what few things they need to be safe and comfortable. And then nature kind of provides, you know, fills in those gaps with the beautiful scenery and those wonderful experiences they have. And, you know, they, they walk away feeling very, you know, fulfilled and satisfied. And, you know, one of the exciting things about being a guide is getting to relive those moments of discovery over and over again, I feel like I'm constantly discovering the same things, which is, it's neat, you know, I watch someone find something new. And I'll catch myself doing it every once in a while, I'll walk past something, and I'll just be excited about something that's a half mile up the trail. So I'll be kind of in a little hurry to get there. And someone says, Hey, wait a minute, what's this? Oh, good question. That's really neat. I just have already seen 15 of them this week. And I get to explain what type of moss something is or, you know, what type of spring flower is coming up. And it's, it's neat to see that, you know, that excitement in their eyes and that curiosity, and you know, kind of comes right back to me. So yeah, I find those camping trips to be my favorite.

Hank Rope 53:35
If you have a fishing license guide, a fishing guide, you can't take people on a hike. But if there's water at the other end, then you can take them on a hike. The rules are crazy.

Patti Rudge 53:51
So Will, I have a question for you. Do you find that there is a withdrawal phase in this culture that we live in right now where people are really connected to their smartphones or iPads, and what have you? Do you find that it takes a day or two, or not?

Will Soter 54:10
I think it depends on where the group is coming from. I notice, because I now partner up with some guides who are based in Manhattan or Brooklyn, and they'll provide the transportation and I'll run the trip up here. Or I'll run the trip up in the Adirondacks. And yes, so folks who are very immersed in that culture of constantly being attached, I was just on a trip where a guy's like, Oh, well, my battery's almost dead on this phone. And he pulls out another phone, he goes, Oh, I'll just I'll just use my work phone. It was like, wait a minute. What do we need a phone for? And he goes, I don't know. I said, well, how about we just put it back. And then that way you have it if you need it, and let's just see if we can make it through today without it. He goes, Oh! Okay. You know, so it's, Yeah, I do find, you know, folks, especially that are you know, I get folks who are just immersed in that, you know, whether it's part of their job, and they just have to stay connected. So they're just used to having these devices in their hands. And you know that first, I had a group I took up to the St. Regis canoe wilderness. And luckily, I noticed it because one of the people in the groups right away took their phone out, and he goes, we have signal, and I was like Shhh! I said, I told everyone else, you must have been in the bathroom when we were at the rest stop. But I told everyone else to put their phone in airplane mode because it preserves their battery. But I also knew that there was signal here, and he goes, Oh, oh, so should I ... I said, you know, for your own benefit, you probably might want to do that. But don't tell anyone else in the rest of the group that there's signal here. So yeah, there is, there is a little bit of a disconnect. But you know, when you get folks to either where there's an area where there's no signal or where there's, you know, if you, if you can kind of trick them out it by telling them their batteries will last longer if they leave it on airplane mode. Once they get through that, usually by the time they get to dinnertime, that first night, and you kind of sit around and you tell a couple of stories, you get people laughing, they start to kind of really settle in. And I find usually after that first night, the first night for people if they've never camped, especially if they've never camped is usually kind of uncomfortable because they're like, Okay, well I guess I'm gonna, I guess I'm going to sleep there. And then when they wake up and you know, they're still in one piece, and they realize, wow, that wasn't that bad. And look where I am. Look what I, you know, I unzipped my tent flap. And this is my view, right, like that. They really start to embrace it more wholeheartedly. And then that, that next night, around the campfire, you get them sharing some of their stories from the day. And you get those little moments of people recapping things and that excitement kind of builds. And by the last night people don't want to go. They realized that Oh, geez, I'm going to have to face all of these things that now don't feel like they're necessary. Like, oh, I gotta turn both phones back on. [Laughter]

Cliff Schwark 57:05
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah. Want to hear a funny story? I used to volunteer a day on the stream for an organization like toTU, and this dentist, and his wife, won me for a day. Well, these were two people that don't belong on a trout stream. But anyway, you've got them and I took them out. And we, I took them on, actually Cold Brook road there, right, where there used to be an old metal bridge, it got washed out with that flood, this nice easy place to wade. And there's fish there. And so I took them out. Well, she was a very small lady, which was actually good.

Patti Rudge 57:56 That small??

Cliff Schwark 57:57
Well, maybe a little bigger. [Laughter and chitchat] Yeah, she was very tiny. But anyway. So I always keep people that don't know how to fish and don't know how to walk in water, I always keep them upstream. Because it's easier to pick them up on the way by than to go running down there [laughter]. Well, he was up above her. And she was right next to me. And I was right close to her because she was very wobbly. And she was, you could see she was scared being out there. Well, to make a story short, she started to go. And she did. And I reached over. And she was small. [Laughter] And I grabbed her by her vest. And I was holding her horizontal. And I said to him, Hey, Doc, about my tip. He said forget the tip, he says, let her go! [Laughter] I don't think those people ever became fishermen. But they had a nice day. They had a good time. And that was, that was the key ... While I'm thinking of it, I was on the Esopus with a lady and she had her little daughter with her. Her daughter stayed on the stream, on the bank, walking along. And she was fishing, and she had, she was picking it up pretty quickly. And she said, Oh, look upstream! Look at that big black dog going across the river. I looked and I said, That's not a dog, that's a bear. She said, oh my God! She says, We gotta get out of here right now! I said, No, no, no. I said it's going up in the mountain. It won't bother you. No, no, it's gonna come down! It'll kill us! It'll eat my daughter! I said, No, no. She would not fish there. She said, you got to get me out of here. I put her back in the car, we went a couple miles upstream, to fish. But she was terrified that that bear was going to turn around, come back, kill us and then eat her daughter. I couldn't convince her otherwise, you know. You don't know what to say in those kind of circumstances, you know? You do the best you can.

I got a lot more! [Laughter] I took a guy out. I had to develop a two day course on fly fishing. I was giving it out of Don Traver's shop in Red Hook. Maybe some of you remember Don, he passed away this year, unfortunately. And so I had this fellow in the class. A wonderful individual, concert violinist out of New York City. And so the first day, what I would do is I would teach you know, the knots, the equipment, the bugs, and all that stuff. And then the other half of the day I would take them out on the lawn and teach them how to fly cast. And this guy picked it up very quickly. And he was very enthusiastic. He had bought before we got there, a new rod, new reel, new lines, vest, waders, boots. He had everything, and he had the best stuff. He was ready to go, and boy was he excited, he was a pleasure to be with. Next day, part of the two day program, I would take him out on the stream and put in practice what I was teaching. So I took him out. I took him to that exact same place by where that, Cold Brook road, I took him down there, got him rigged up. He walked out into the water about the height of the top of his socks. I was standing right next to him. And he looks at me and he says Cliff, I can't do this. I said you can't do what? He said I can't stand in water. I said you've never stood in water? No, I can't do this. I'm going to fall, grabs me. I said you're not going to fall, I'm right here. You know, just stand still for a while, you'll get used to it. No, I can't do this. I can't do this. I said well, he said I looked down at the water, I said don't look down at the water. Look horizontal. Look at the bank. Maybe that ... I can't do this. I said, well let's just stand here. So I made him stand there a little bit. I thought he'd get acclimated to it. But he had some kind of vertigo or something. He just could not stand it. He said you got to get me back on the shore. So I back him up, he's on shore now. I said, Well, what do you want to do? I said, You don't have to go in the water. We can go along the bank. You can fish. It'll be just fun. No, no, he says. That's not fly fishing as I understand it. You gotta get out in the water. You gotta do it the right way. I'm not going to do it halfway. I said, Well, we're here. He said, Let's sit down and talk. And let's eat lunch. I said, okay.

Patti Rudge 1:03:18
And that's when the ranger shows up!

Cliff Schwark 1:03:20
Yeah! So we eat the lunch. And I said, Well, what are we going to do? I said, you know, the day's young. He said, I want you to fish. I said, no, no, wait a minute. You're paying me to fish?? I said, that's not right, that's not right. He said, yes, I'm paying you and that's what I want you to do. So I felt pretty strange. I tried to talk him out of it. But, so I started, took his rod, and I started fishing, and then rather than just fish I was trying to teach him at the same time. And I was showing him the different kinds of casts. You know, how to mend your line, how to fish dry flies on top, how to fish nymphs underneath, and how to use a strike... I was doing all that stuff. Well, obviously, after all these years, I can catch fish. So obviously once in a while I get a fish. Well, I figured like you said there Hank, here, take the rod. He wouldn't take it! He said, you caught him... I said... I couldn't get him to do anything. He kept walking along with me. Well, to make the story short. We ended up the day. It's about an hour and a half of watching me fish and catch fish. He said, that's it. That's good. That's fine. I said, you sure? He said, yes. So we go. I drop him off at Don Traver's. He goes his way down to New York and I go back home. He gives me the money and I just put it in my pocket. And I said to him, Look, half price. Pay me for the first day. You didn't do anything the second day but watch me fish. That's not right. So he says, okay. When I got home I counted the money. Well, he not only paid me for a whole day. There's an extra hundred dollars in here. So I called him up the next day. And I said, you made a mistake. First of all, I said, you didn't do what I told you to do. You gave me for the full two days. But I said on top of that you've given me $100. You made a mistake. He says No, that wasn't a mistake. That was a tip. I said. he gave me $100 tip. I said that's not right. He said, let me tell you something. The two days I spent with you are the best two days of my life. [Laughter] I didn't know, I didn't know what to say. I was dumbfounded, and that's not like me. I can talk. I didn't know what to say. [Laughter] I just said, well thank you very much. Never heard from him again, but two best days of his life, he said.

Patti Rudge 1:06:05
Well, that's beautiful. You did your job. Yeah. You made him happy.

Cliff Schwark 1:06:10
Well, it was mentioned here that you give them an experience out there. Now this was a rare thing of course.

Patti Rudge 1:06:18
It doesn't happen every week? [Laughter]

Cliff Schwark 1:06:22
Well, I'll give you one that isn't so nice, if you want. I had a call from a fellow in New York City. He said, I understand you're a guide. I said yes. He said, you guarantee me fish? I said no. He said, well why not? You're a fly fishing guide. I said yes. But I can't guarantee you fish. He said well, what can you guarantee? I said I guarantee you probably a good time. And I'll probably be able to teach you some things. But I'm not going to guarantee you fish because I never know. Some days I can't get fish myself. And I've been doing it forever. And he says Well, we'll see about that. I should have, right there, said thank you very much. Call somebody else.

Will Soter 1:07:06 I'm booked.

Cliff Schwark 1:07:07

Cliff Schwark 1:14:36 Someone's digging there, huh?

Will Soter 1:14:39
It was just interesting, kind of trying to manage those expectations and draw them along a little bit further. But uh, you know, you recognize those clues and from that point on, I recognize those clues in correspondence with people and, you know, when you don't get clear, you know, responses back, that's generally they're not on the same page, they've just locked on to this idea of this ideal experience that they want. And they're not listening to any of the information in between. Luckily, that group, I was able to get him back there. And they were surprised that I knew that it was going to rain the next day. They're like, how did you know it was gonna? It's my job. I need to know what things we're going to face out here. And I knew it was going to be this rainy. And they said, So we don't have to leave the lean-to today? I said, you don't have to if you don't want to. And they're like, Great. And they all went right back in their sleeping bags. All right. I said, I said I'll be over here tending the fire. You let me know.

Beth Waterman 1:15:33 Short story from Hank.

Hank Rope 1:15:34
To end on a high note about why I live here. And why I'm a guide. Two day trip on the Beaverkill with a gentleman that was a president of a bank in Florida. More money than anybody. He really had a lot of money, all nice fancy stuff. Anyway, on the second day, he said, I have to be out of here at noon because the chauffeur's coming to pick him up and take him to the airport in Sullivan county where his jet's waiting to take him back to a meeting. So I said okay, about 11:30, we have to go in 15 minutes or so. He said, I'm just going to sit here. And the man sat on a rock in the middle of the Beaverkill. And I kind of went in the woods a little bit, got out of his way. Come back out later on. And I said sir, we have to go. And he says to me, I envy you. You'll be back here tomorrow.

Beth Waterman 1:16:38
Well, that's a wonderful way to end because I really think it's marvelous how much effort you all put into sharing the outdoors with the public. And obviously, sometimes some people are more grateful than others Patti, you brought a few things to share here. Do you want to show and tell? And then we'll break up for cookies and ...

Patti Rudge 1:17:05
So the first thing I brought is your classic guide's pack. And, actually, I had an opportunity to meet and make this pack with Beth, many, many years ago. I brought it because it is your quintessential... experiences... in the old days, when you would go out with a guide... to me it goes back that 120 some odd years when you had the big money out of Saratoga and Albany, and New York City. They would buy huge tracts of property up in the Adirondacks. And then they would hire an architect and an engineer and then all the locals to build this beautiful home, which would be called the Great Camp. In those great camps is where a lot of the original guides came from. Because these Great Camps had to be staffed. They had their caretakers, and they had their fancy cooks, and they had their housekeepers, and their landscape people, but they also then had someone in the downtime, take the families that were up there for three weeks in the summer, to take them out for that exceptional experience. And what you would see unconditionally is they'd have their own guide boat that they made by hand, and they'd have a pack basket look like this. You were cared for in every small step of the way. And most locally, I can tell you, is a beautiful trail that is on private property that goes up to one of our high peaks, and it is also called the step trail or the ladies trail. It's also called the Dutcher trail. And that was the guide's last name. So back in the late 1800s. Here in Shandaken, we had a guide, who took the time and the pains to build this step trail up this mountain. And the steps are perhaps this deep, because back in the day, when you had the women wearing the high collar dress, the high boots and the multiple petticoats, how difficult that it be, they couldn't be taking these even average steps, they could only master these small steps. And there was a step trail built all the way to just off the summit of this peak, just intentionally for that kind of company. So about 3600 feet, there's actually an old spring that is still, its hand dug, it's hand laid up with stone and it's still totally locatable. And potable. I was just there the other day, it's a pretty special place. So we still have tangible evidence of guides out there. I brought this to remind people of the history that's parallel with the New York State guides history; it's really the history of the New York State Forest Preserve, which we are so surrounded by here, about 72% of the land in the town of Shandaken is New York state land, and it is all protected. It's all forever wild. And the boundary lines are painted. They're first blazed about DBH diameter, breast height. And then it's painted yellow. And that's one of my jobs was to paint those boundary lines. And this is actually article 14, which is of the New York State Constitution. And basically it says, and I will read it, “The lands the state now owned or hereafter acquired constituting the Forest Preserve, as now fixed by law shall be forever kept as wild forest lands.” And that's article 14. It comes again along, it parallels the history of the New York State guides. So that's what I wanted to share with you. Those are my props.

Beth Waterman 1:20:49
Well, thank you all very much for coming [applause] for spending some time on this beautiful day with us here.