Plattekill Mountain: the Last Indie Ski Resort in the Catskills

Transcribed by Jerome Kazlauskas

Foster Green  0:03  
Actually, the skiing here sucks and there's lots of rocks and that's why it's called Roxbury, and when you walk out, burn the tape. Burn the tape!

Brett Barry  0:17  
That's Chris Stearns; half-joking that I should bury this story. Because, well, local skiers like Chris enjoy the laid-back vibes of a place like Plattekill. I'm Brett Barry and this is "Kaatscast: The Catskills Podcast." When I started skiing in the Catskills, there were other small mountains to choose from like Bobcat and Highmount and Cortina, where I first clicked into a pair of skis at age 5. Today, Plattekill Mountain in Roxbury is the last of the Catskills independent ski areas and the kind of place where the actual owner might personally respond to an interview request and that's just what happened when co-owner Danielle Vajtay responded to mine and set up a meeting at the lodge on a Friday afternoon.

Danielle Vajtay  1:08  
Hi, I'm Danielle from Plattekill Mountain.

Brett Barry  1:11  
And you are the co-owner of Plattekill Mountain?

Danielle Vajtay  1:14  
I am, yes.

Brett Barry  1:16  
How did that come about? So did you start by skiing here or working here?

Danielle Vajtay  1:21  
Yeah, we actually both met here at the mountain way back when my family skied here and my husband Laszlo was the director of the ski school at the time and we just kind of started hanging out and next thing you know, he's buying a Ski Mountain Inn. I was living in New York City at the time and just decided to give it a shot and I moved up to the area here and we've been running it ever since. We bought it in 1993. My husband was still on his own at that point, but I joined him in '96.

Brett Barry  1:55  
That seems like a significant investment risk and a few other things. Buying a ski mountain: what was involved, what was the state of the mountain when you ... when you bought it and was there anything that needed to go into it right away?

Danielle Vajtay  2:08  
That's pretty funny that you say that because we always joke around and we say, "So you think you want to run a ski mountain?" Yeah, it's definitely ... it's definitely been a challenge. It's not ... not exactly all ... it's cracked up to be. It's a lot of ... a lot of hard work and my husband always jokes around and says, "If it was easy, everyone would do it," but yeah, I mean, when we first took over, there was virtually no snowmaking here at the mountain, and of course with the way the winters go up and down. That's such a necessity, so that was something that we tackled right off the bat and it's something that we've really continued to invest most of the money that we make from year-to-year into our snowmaking system, which is ... which as you can imagine is not cheap.

So tell me a little bit about that. How many trails do you have and what percentage of those trails have snowmaking?

So about 75% of our terrain does have snowmaking coverage on it now. Every year, we expand more and more, but there's so many components to it. You know, it's not just like putting guns. It's putting the pipe that's going to feed the water. It's the pipe that's going to feed the air. Which trails have air? Which trails have electric? How much water do we need at one time? Where do we need the water? Where do we need to put the water? So it's a challenge. It's always kind of a ... it's actually very strategic as far as how they figure out where they're gonna make the snow. It's not so easy. A lot of people think, "Oh, it's cold, so just turn the guns on," and snowmaking should be just covering; blanketing the mountain overnight. It's a real challenge for a smaller ski mountain that doesn't have the capabilities to have a polaron system that you can literally like with the flip of a switch, you know, cover trails in a night. But, you know, we're building on that every year and building on that infrastructure, so that it's that much easier for us to ... to get snow down and to recover quickly from a warm spell and kind of tackle different areas, you know, where we know are weaker spots on the mountain.

Brett Barry  4:04  
Are you seeing the effects of climate change in terms of the snow that's available either from the sky or man-made over the past decades that you've owned this mountain?

Danielle Vajtay  4:14  
I mean, I can honestly say that it's a challenge every year. Every year poses a different challenge. Is it going to be too cold? Is it going to be too warm? You know, too warm that the snow melts, too cold that families don't come because it's freezing cold and our kids can't withstand, you know, an hour or two in the lesson. As far as like snow quantity like varying over the years, I just feel like even from when I started back in '96 and I skied here much longer before that because I grew up skiing here on the mountain. Natural snowfall has always been the challenge, but with the technology of snowmaking we've come so far. I think that we just can't be complacent in any way. You can ever think. Well, we usually get snow over there. So let's not make the snow over there. No, the challenge needs to be to make the snow and make it deep. If we make it deep enough, it'll withstand some bad weather periods. In the beginning, it was kind of more about like let's get the trail count; let's get the quantity. We can go back and make more, but that mindsets changed a bit. It's kind of more ... no, let's make it deep. Let's make it hopefully once. Natural snow is always the icing on the cake. We can't really rely on the natural snow. We can even have cold weather and just not have precipitation. So, you know, I think people also are getting used to the fact that the mountains all have snowmaking. You need to have a base. You can't rely on natural snow for a base. This is just our product and we need to make the donuts. We need to make the snow. We have to have great coverage and I think the guests are just becoming more and more used to that; that the mountains have snow, they make the snow and, you know, the goal is just to meet those expectations, so they always have that in their minds that like ... "Hey, if we go to the mountains, they'll have snow."

Brett Barry  5:59  
Speaking of snow, we're ... we're meeting on a Friday afternoon. The lifts are, I guess, closing or closed. People are kind of chilling out and we're ... we're looking at a good amount of snow coming in this weekend. So does that pose its own set of challenges or are you marketing and getting the word out: that's gonna be a great weekend, that kind of thing?

Danielle Vajtay  6:17  
Of course, yeah, we're always promoting. Getting people hyped up about snow. Everybody loves snow, of course you can't. There's no money that can buy the fact that someone's gonna have to shovel some snow out of their driveway and they'll start to think about skiing. When there's some snow on people's driveways or on their cars, they immediately start to think about winter: winter sports, skiing, snowboarding, snowtubing. So we're very in tune to let's be positive. Let's think snow. Let's be realistic, but we'll report it when we get it. As soon as we, you know, get some snow people get super excited. We're really lucky. We're in the western Catskills. We get a lot of lake-effect snow, but we also benefit from the nor'easters that come up to because we're kind of smack dab in the center of all that. Sometimes we lose out because we're on the fringe of either-or, but a lot of times we'll have the overlapping effect and we kind of get the benefits of both. It's always a plus and we're definitely going to be promoting it and we're going to be promoting what we get as we get it. We never have to worry about preparing for snow. That's the least of our worries. Snow is ... snow is it.

Brett Barry  7:18  
Who are your customers? Where did they come from?

Danielle Vajtay  7:21  
So the majority of our customers are coming from downstate: Long Island is a very popular market for us; Westchester County; Northern New Jersey; up the Hudson Valley. We get a lot of people from the Hudson Valley area. We do get skiers to come south from the Albany Capital Region. It's a little bit of a challenge there because skiers tend to want to hop in the car and head north not head south, but our location here getting a lot of natural snow because of our location that people know that we've got some great quality skiing here. I mean, our mountain has some good significant vertical and snow conditions are good. They don't get skied off because we don't have a lot of major ski or traffic that you find at some of the larger resorts, so we do get people kind of from all angles, but primarily from downstate.

Brett Barry  8:05  
And do you have your local regulars?

Danielle Vajtay  8:08  
Oh yeah, we have a great local following and the community. You know, unfortunately, we're not in a large population, but we do get people from like an hour, you know, radius around that we consider our local community area from west to Oneonta, east to Kingston area, and we are the Catskills region; you know we've got the ... the four ski mountains here, so there's enough to go around and we definitely have some great support. People that recognize that we are the last really family ski mountain around and ... and the challenges that ... that pose is in many respects.

Brett Barry  8:43  
So let's talk about that. There's four mountains in the Catskills. When I was started skiing, there were more. Now you've got a mountain that's run by the state; a mountain that's gone semi-private with exorbitant membership fees; and a mountain that's now owned by a huge ski conglomerate based out of Colorado. So you're the last independent ski mountain. What's your relationship with the other mountains in terms of how you position yourselves or compete and are you concerned that it'll be more difficult to remain independent in the face of those mammoth kind of establishments?

Danielle Vajtay  9:22  
Well, we're sure as heck gonna hang on. A lot of our customers and ... and new customers to that are finding out about us are ... are loving the fact that we're still in it; that we're still in the game because let's face it. It is definitely a challenge. Our closest competitor being the state of New York at Belleayre Mountain. So that's definitely a huge, huge challenge for us, but I think that people are coming around full circle and it's not all about, you know, the biggest and the best and the fastest lifts and the sushi in the cafeteria and that kind of stuff. It's more about the experience and I think people are coming full circle and not really looking at us anymore as like mom-and-pop, even though we are. It doesn't really have the greatest connotation. I think they're looking at us more as like authentic; comes to mind real genuine; and people appreciate that difference and appreciate that the mountain is privately run by a family literally. So when we say we're for families ... we truly are a family for our families. You know, it's hard to say when you're a corporation or when you're the state of New York. So ... as much as all of that poses challenges, I think we also see that as an opportunity and I think that our goal is just to continue to emphasize who we are and stay true to who we are.

Brett Barry  10:34  
And it's a completely different field. So as you were saying, I think there's a real benefit to that, especially as some mountains go semi-private and cater to an exclusive clientele with hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend. I think there will certainly be people who are excited to come back to something like this. What are some of the other things that might keep you up at night?

Danielle Vajtay  10:57  
The thing that you always are concerned about is, you know, is everybody going to have a good time because our business is the fun business. This is everyone's vacation. This is everyone's free time. This is everyone's spending money. You know, they're coming to your place and where they want to spend their free time. So it kind of has a very high expectation that you want to make sure that you live up to that expectation and, you know, sometimes when maybe the snow is not as good or whatever, you know, we always tell people, you know, come for the whole experience, come for the lodge, come for the fireplaces, come for the après-ski, the live music, the great bar, you can get great food, we have snow tubing here to ... skiing. So I think that ... that's definitely something that challenges me or plagues me that I just hope that everybody comes here and has a great ... a great time.

Brett Barry  11:45  
Do you and your husband have kind of dedicated roles in managing this mountain?

Danielle Vajtay  11:50  
Yes, we do. It's very clearly differentiated. He's kind of got his things he's good at. I've got mine. It handles a lot of the operations: a lot of the outdoors: behind-the-scenes, tight things, and I'm more involved with, you know, inside the lodge and marketing aspects of things.

Brett Barry  12:08  
How many employees do you have?

Danielle Vajtay  12:09  
The middle of the season ... I think we have like 50, 50-75 staff maybe even more, and then we have a full ski school as well, which is maybe another 50 people there, and then we have a full on ski patrol, volunteer ski patrol, but that's another 50 or so.

Brett Barry  12:25  
And then is there a capacity for visitors?

Danielle Vajtay  12:28  
We do like to kind of stay dialed in to our numbers. You know, we want to have that great experience for our guests, but we really don't limit it as far as, you know, keeping a count and cutting off. We do ... do that with our snow tubing. It's more of like a smaller contained area. There's a certain amount of tubes, a certain amount of lanes, and again, we want everybody to have that quality experience, so we don't overbook it and have folks standing in lines or whatever. We'd rather, you know, have the experience to be top-notch.

Brett Barry  12:54  
Is there ever a lift line?

Danielle Vajtay  12:56  
We get some lift lines, but it's nothing like you would imagine. It's not the trails that get crowded. It's the actual like infrastructure that the lodge, the parking, that's what we get maxed out on. You might look around the mountain and there'll be like no lift lines. There's hardly anybody skiing on the ... on the trails, but the lodge will be maxed out. The bathrooms are packed. There's lines, you know, the parking is maxed out, so it's our physical infrastructure that limits us; not our actual like skiable acreage and the lifts.

Brett Barry  13:24  
When I started skiing, it was a set price until pretty recently and maybe ... maybe COVID change that. But now you have the ability to buy tickets online at all the resorts, I think, including yours. There's kind of a fluctuating price for the ticket. How does that work?

Danielle Vajtay  13:39  
Yep, that's just exactly right and ever since COVID that really came like you said more into play and it's stuck and it's ... it's really the way it is with really anything that these days. You know, people want to know that like it said that it's booked, you know, everything from lessons to rentals to their tickets. They just want to lock it in. It's great because now people lock in their visit date. The earlier you buy, the cheaper the pricing. I mean it's ... it's a great concept. Let's face it like we want to reward someone who committed to come to our mountain two or three weeks ago versus the guy that's gonna wake up in the morning and say, "It's a sunny day and we just got 12 inches of snow and I'm gonna head skiing, why should those two people pay the same price?" and it's been wildly successful for, I think, not just our mountain but for the ski industry in general since COVID that this is just like the new way that people buy online. So, I mean, that way if you have a day where the maybe the conditions aren't as great: how you didn't pay as much for your ticket, you committed to the mountain you benefited, you got a discounted price because you bought in advance and, you know, it's great for us because those skiers are coming because they ... they bought the tickets, so it's kind of like win-win for everyone.

Brett Barry  14:46  
How would you characterize the terrain here?

Danielle Vajtay  14:49  
Well, we're situated in a natural ski bowl, so we've got two natural peaks. We've got wrap around being in our green circle; novice trails two miles long off either peak that wrap around, and then it makes sense that as you get more and more towards the center, it gets steeper and steeper. A lot of our terrain is classified as like a New England meandering cut tight trails, you know, that are each trail is like very different. They're not big wide swath tight groomer trails. We've got a couple of those, but there's just a lot of like classic cut New England tight trails, which are people love and although our mountain is known for having some pretty nice advanced terrain. We've stayed focused over the past few years in our novice terrain. We've added a brand new trail just last year. This year, we took in intermediate trail and totally bulldozed it and worked at it to make it now a novice trail. So we're really trying to offer more train for the novice sounds cliché-ish, but you'll find something for everyone here, really? You know, you'll be able to find those two mile long novice trails. You'll be able to find the double black diamond steeps and you'll have a pretty great experience without a lot of skier traffic on the trails, too.

Brett Barry  16:01  
As busy as you are running this mountain, do you still have time to ski?

Danielle Vajtay  16:04  
Well, you wanted to ski today, didn't you? You know, I don't get out as much as I used to. I think that's kind of ... kind of how it goes. Whenever you're in the business, It's like the shoemakers kid, right? You don't have nice shoes when you're the shoemakers kid. I do get out and ski a bit, but not as much as I'd like to, you know, on the busy-busy days when the skiing is at its best. That's really when you want to be out there skiing because the conditions are awesome. You ... you just can't. You've got to be on top of things.

Brett Barry  16:31  
So I have the rare opportunity to speak to the owner of this mountain. If I'm coming here for the first time, what would you advise? What are the secrets or the tips and tricks to have the best possible day? When do I come? Where do I start? How do I get the most out of this mountain?

Danielle Vajtay  16:48  
Well, we hope you feel it from the moment that you arrive. It just doesn't have that overwhelming feel, which you do find that a lot of big resorts now: multiple lodges, multiple parking lots, shuttles. The one nice thing about Plattekill is being that we're in the natural skeeball; all of the trails kind of meander down to that one base lodge, so you don't have to feel overwhelmed when you get here. A parent who's going to take some kids for the first time doesn't have to worry about the kid being at the wrong lodge or the wrong shuttle or whatever; all the trails, you know, come down to the one base area, which I know parents and new visitors here absolutely love; heading to the rental shop, new preset, all of our gear. So you could fill all your rental forms out online before you visit here. That was another thing that came about as a result of COVID and has stuck around, but you can fill out your forms, and so when you arrive, all of your gear is already preset ... waiting for you. You know, head on over to our ski school. We have an amazing ski school: ski instructor, snowboard instructors, class sizes aren't large. We in fact ... don't even really do group lessons anymore. It's not all about, you know, grouping 20 people into like stationed teaching and follow this group and kind of like masses. We don't want to lose you. We want you to take a lesson and absolutely love it. Yeah, that might entail a little bit more money for a private lesson. But, I think at the end of it, you'll say, "I got it," you know, and that's what we really want to do. So it's like all those different points of contact that makes an experience here. Different ... it's everything. It's really not just one thing. It's not. It's the layout. It's the staff and we're able to pull it all off because we are smaller and we are family mountain.

Brett Barry  18:23  
And wood stoves and open fires right in the lodge and ... and local beer on tap.

Danielle Vajtay  18:28  
Absolutely yes, we've got the wood burning stoves in the lodge. The open fire pit we're adding; adding wood to it as we speak, and yeah, we've got a great bar and lounge, and yeah, we do definitely hone in on keeping things local and all in always possible and that goes right down to the beer that you're drinking; kind of having all the local flavors on tap, which, you know, all of our guests love, so yeah.

Brett Barry  18:49  
Do you have a favorite trail?

Danielle Vajtay  18:51  
I do. I love Ridge Run. Ridge Run is one of those classic New England style trails that I mentioned that when it gets great snow, we can open it. We're a little limited on our snowmaking on that trail, so it's magical when it's open because it's not something you can take for granted because it's not one of the ones that we can ... can hit and cover like some of the other ones, so it's kind of special when it opens. I've got other favorites, too. That's just one of my favorites.

Brett Barry  19:16  
Okay, so if you're averse to crowds and prefer a smaller scale experience, Plattekill might be just the ticket, but what if you want the mountain completely to yourself? Well, that can be arranged. Find out how right after this.

If you're enjoying Kaatscast, please leave us a review and don't forget to subscribe on the podcast app of your choice, so you never miss an episode and for print news, might we suggest a subscription to the Mountain Eagle, covering Delaware, Greene, and Schoharie counties, including brands for the local region such as the Windham Weekly, Schoharie News, Cobleskill Herald, and Catskills Chronicle. For more information, call 518-763-6854 or email: mountaineaglenews@gmail.com. And now, back to the Plattekill Lodge with owner Danielle Vajtay.

And let's talk about one thing that is really unique to this mountain, which is you can rent it.

Danielle Vajtay  20:27  
Oh yes, oh yes, that ... that's become super popular. That's been a huge opportunity for us. We are a Friday through Sunday operation and holiday periods: so Martin Luther King Day, Christmas Week, President's Week, and then aside from that, we've just been Friday, Saturday, Sunday, literally from the standpoint that when you operate a business like this, it just financially ... it doesn't make sense and I don't know that how much longer we'd be in business if we had to sustain a Monday through Thursday walk uptight guest and it kind of evolved on its own. We had some skiers approached us one day and they didn't realize that we were closed. It might have been a random Tuesday or Wednesday and they came to the mountain and they said, "What? You're closed?" It was after probably some great snow we'd had. They arrived here to the mountain when our parking lot and they asked us the question, "What would it take for you guys to open the lifts for us?" and we kind of joked around and before you knew it, there were thrown around some numbers that we said, "Oh boy, we ... we might be on to something," and literally, that's exactly how organically it started, and ever since then, on Monday through Thursday, we rent them out now privately. This year, our price is $8,500 for all services operational. So we'll open any department you want if you want the bar or not. Do you want the cafeteria or not? You don't have rentals ... we won't staff that up for you ... you want lessons ... we'll be sure to have instructors ... so we tailor it to every group's needs and, yeah, that's taken off hugely. In fact, this year, we're completely booked on her private mountain rentals and we are already booking reservations for 25 and the really ironic thing is that, you know, some people book it. You book it a year in advance. You know, some people get not the greatest weather day. Let's say, "socked in with fog, rain," but the people have an amazing time because it's a group of people who are all connected some way: cozy ski lodge, fireplaces, food, beverage, some people are skiing, some are tubing, and it's just amazing. They said, "You know what? We had a great day. How do we book this next year?" So it's a really interesting phenomenon and it's been great for us and for the mountain.

Brett Barry  22:31  
So much nicer than a conference center. If you want to do kind of a corporate retreat or something, I'm sure that ... that's happened.

Danielle Vajtay  22:37  
Absolutely yes, we get a lot of corporate for sure that rent them out and bring whether it's their clients or their staff, depending on the nature of their, you know, what kind of rental that they want to have, but it's really unique because now we can tailor it. You know, if a corporation comes in and they want to cover the bar for two hours or they want lunch on them, it can be run however you want it like that. Yeah, so that's really unique.

Brett Barry  23:00  
You know, since you've purchased the mountain, a lot of your resources have gone into snowmaking, is that going to continue and kind of what are you looking forward to for the future of this mountain?

Danielle Vajtay  23:09  
Oh, of course! I mean, the snowmaking infrastructure and the improvements to it are never going to end. I don't see how you can ever say it's done. You always want to make it better, easier, faster, more modern technology. So, you know, that's definitely where we always want ahead. It would be nice to upgrade our lifts. You know, we've got great lifts, but it's a matter of just like living up to x-guest's expectations. It's what they're used to. It's where they're skiing other mountains being able to keep up not that we need high speed, detachable lifts here, we just don't get that volume of skier. But, you know, it would be nice ... maybe add another lift, you know, maybe expand that beginner terrain even more. The potential to possibly, you know, expand the mountain one day is always ... always a dream. You know, if you build it, they will come for sure.

Brett Barry  23:55  
You've been doing it for so long now that it's ... it's obviously, I think, sustainable.

Danielle Vajtay  24:01  
Yeah, it's definitely sustainable. I mean, it's very rewarding when you see, you know, families growing and you see kids growing up, and then you see kids that were little that are now returning and they're more college kids and they're bringing their friends and they're saying, "Oh my gosh, I've never been to this mountain before," you know, and just kind of seeing it grow again ... using that word, but organically seeing that happen really is rewarding. They're saying some snow's coming this weekend, so got everything crossed: pajamas inside out and all the things you do: snow dances and all and just getting ready. Yep, praying for snow.

Brett Barry  24:36  
After my chat with Danielle, I walked past the fireplace and over to the ski shop, where it turns out a small acoustic jam session was taking place: shopkeep George Quinn on guitar, Foster Green on mandolin, and Chris Stearns on trumpet and spoons.

Foster Green  24:54  
My name is Foster and I ski here and I play with George on occasion and George runs this year in a little ski shop and keeps his guitar here, and when I come down, I bring my mandolin and we ... we jam and sometimes we get joined by people like Chris with his horn ...

Brett Barry  25:12  
And his spoons.

Foster Green  25:13  
... and his spoons? Yep, and sometimes there's a fiddle player that joins us and sometimes another guitar play. You just never know who's going to show up and do it because it's ... it's an old tradition here.

Brett Barry  25:24  
And you've been skiing here for how long?

Foster Green  25:28  
Since I was mid-thirties and I'm now 76, so about 40 ... 40 years, something like that. Yeah.

Brett Barry  25:36  
What would you say is special about this mountain?

Foster Green  25:39  
Everything. It's so much more friendly than the bigger areas and it's ... especially on a Friday like this. It's ... there's hardly anybody here and you just have the run of the place, you know, but even on the weekends, it's the only place to be as far as I'm concerned just because it doesn't get so darn crowded and, plus, the people are friendly and the beautiful variety of trails: everything from real easy to pretty nasty and everything in between, you know, just a nice place to be. This is like my home away from home.

George Quinn  26:16  
I'm George V. Quinn. I've been here 25 years.

Brett Barry  26:19  
Alright, so you run the ski shop and what do you think is special about this mountain?

George Quinn  26:23  
Well, the trails are old-fashioned style. There's big wide slopes, but there's also some very narrow trails, which I like and they have good natural snow here; probably one of the best in the Catskills and also the lodge here. You get to know everybody on a first name basis, but you wouldn't get in a larger ski area.

Brett Barry  26:45  
When they hear you playing, did they come in and grab an instrument?

George Quinn  26:48  
Yes, we usually have a spare guitar. We usually play out in the cafeteria after skiing. People would have bring your beers down and it's a little party of its own down here.

Brett Barry  26:59  
And who is this joining you today?

George Quinn  27:00  
Chris Stearns ... he's ... he plays, he's the one of the few people who plays the horn to bluegrass style music, old-time music.

Brett Barry  27:11  
How often do you join these guys?

Chris Stearns  27:12  
Whenever I can.

Brett Barry  27:14  
And you're playing a trumpet and a spoon?

Chris Stearns  27:17  
I practiced for 50 years ... that trumpet right there ... 50 years ... Manchester, New Hampshire ... I got that ... 1973 ... mother-of-pearl buttons ... just had it restored on 34th Street at J. Landress and here we are.

Male Voice  27:32  
Yeah.

Chris Stearns  27:33  
How's it sound, guys?

Guys  27:34  
Oh, great!

Chris Stearns  27:36  
And I've been playing these guys helped me get back into music about 20 years ago, something like that. Yeah, they helped me get back into music because I had to, you know, put the horn away to work and support a family. So here I'm back; not supporting the family and not working and playing the mother-of-pearl things. Actually, the skiing here sucks and there's lots of rocks and that's why it's called Roxbury because they're buried rocks, and when you walk out, burn the tape. Burn the tape!

Brett Barry  28:21  
Just then, Foster jumped in and suggested it might be okay to share this place with other people.

Foster Green  28:26  
I like to ... I'll even tell people where I go fishing, you know which most people are so guarded about because most of them won't ever show up and it's just like if we get a couple more people here out of this business, it'll just be a couple more people and there's plenty of room, you know.

Brett Barry  28:50  
Kaatscast is a production of Silver Hollow Audio. Be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, so you never miss an episode. You can also find us at kaatscast.com and on Instagram @kaatscast. Many thanks to the Nicholas J. Juried Family Foundation for their generous support of this podcast. Kaatscast is also supported by local organizations and listeners like you. I'm your host, Brett Barry. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time!

Audio  29:20  
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